Katie McMann and her husband struggled with infertility for years, finally turning to IVF to resolve their infertility. They discovered that not only does IVF not cure infertility, but it also comes with tremendous moral implications, especially in Catholic theology. Katie explains the process she and her husband went through after they learned more about the Catholic perspective on infertility and IVF as well as the origins of their IVF ministry.
Through Shiloh IVF Ministry, Katie helps couples deal with the hardship of infertility, discern what to do with frozen embryonic children, and more.
Shiloh IVF Ministry: https://www.shilohivf.com/
Home | The Fruitful Hollow: thefruitfulhollow.com
The Fruitful Hollow is a Catholic resource and community for those who struggle with infertility.
Springs in the Desert | Catholic Infertility Ministry: https://springsinthedesert.org/
Chapters
Chapters
00:00 The Journey Through IVF and Infertility
02:51 Inception of Shiloh IVF Ministry
06:07 Support Systems for Infertility
09:05 Alternatives to IVF: Exploring Natural Methods
12:11 Understanding Catholic Teachings on IVF
15:08 Navigating Conversations with Children about IVF
17:47 The Role of God in the IVF Process
20:59 Reflections on Regret and Healing
23:55 Encouragement for Those Facing Infertility
Transcript (Please note the transcript is auto-generated and contains errors)
Katie McMann (00:00.47)
the next time we went back for IVF because IVF doesn’t actually cure infertility. We had to go back again.
Hold on,
Yes, IVF does not in fact, infertility.
It gives you a baby, but it doesn’t cure infertility. So there you were back again, looking in the freezer.
We were back again. We had another embryo transferred and we miscarried with that one. So then we went back again after a period of time and we got pregnant and conceived my youngest daughter.
Katie McMann (00:58.35)
And then ultimately, I guess, then we had the last four. So there were a couple though, in the process at every stage of IVF, there’s risk to the embryos. And so even though at the beginning fresh cycle, we went and had 12 embryos, we ultimately had only six that were frozen.
I see.
So in that process, we conceived our middle child.
Tell me, what prompted you guys to start a ministry about this though? Because that’s another whole level. That just ratchets this whole thing up to a new level. What prompted you? What inspired you to say…
I think it’s interesting. was looking after we had, after my husband and I had attempted to transfer our final four embryonic children, I was talking with my husband and saying, you know, we have this experience of infertility that we can share. have infertility, we have miscarriage, we have adoption, we ave IVF use and
Katie McMann (02:16.674)
You know, I remember going back to the fertility clinic after we had decided to transfer our last few embryos and said, you know, what can we do to help other couples that experienced this? And they just had no idea. You know, that’s not their business. Their business is to transfer embryos and try to achieve pregnancy.
So they really didn’t have any.
suggestions, but I kept pursuing avenues to, thought maybe write articles or share my experience in some way. And as I did, I reached out to a couple of organizations, Springs in the Desert and the Fruitful Hollow. And as I was reaching out to the Fruitful Hollow to write for them, see if I could write for their blog, they got back to me and said, you know, our theological editor is working on a ministry.
for post IVF couples. And we were wondering if we could forward your information to her. And I’m like, my gosh, absolutely. You know, because I was looking at potential infertility ministries, which is great. I’m working with a mentoring group through the fruitful hollow for that. But this is a way, a unique way that having experienced IVF that I can contribute.
And so the other ladies who are working on the project, both have a tie to infertility and just a passion for pro-life and touching IVF in this way. And one of the other ladies has twins and was getting questions about IVF as she was in her pregnancy with her natural twins.
Katie McMann (04:19.794)
And so she’s like, let me look at this. What is this? What is IVF? And so as she started looking into it, she became active in trying to pursue a ministry as well. So we were all kind of connected and began this ministry of Shiloh IVF.
So just to spell it out for us, what exactly is fruitful hollow?
So the Fruitful Hollow is a Catholic infertility resource, is online. They have a bunch of information regarding infertility, of discernment guides, all kinds of things. But they also offer a Sisters of Hannah mentorship program for women or couples, men who are experiencing infertility.
That is a unique mentorship program where someone can say, I’m having this experience with infertility. I’d really like to talk to someone.
my gosh, that’s amazing. That’s amazing. How long have they been in existence?
Katie McMann (05:33.002)
I know it’s been at least a couple years, but I’m not sure how long.
Because the reason I ask is when we were going through this, there was nothing like that. I wouldn’t have known it anyway. I wouldn’t have been looking for something Catholic. But I can tell you for a fact that the infertility support groups that were out there were all about channeling people towards the industry. And I think that has only accelerated. There’s an organization called Resolve, I think, that has been around for a long time.
back in the day when we were doing it, they talked a lot about adoption, but they also talked a lot about these other methods. And my sense is that since over time, they have gone more and more towards the medical interventions and less and less on adoption. don’t know for a fact, but to have somebody with Catholic sensibilities and guided by the teachings of the church to be there to help people deal with this
very painful cross of infertility. That’s amazing.
Yes, they will talk to anyone. So it’s not necessarily for just Catholics. I think there have been a good number of women who I have talked with who a variety of faiths have come because you’re right, infertility support groups generally geared towards IVF.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (06:41.941)
R E A L
Katie McMann (07:06.174)
and, you know, assisted reproductive technologies. And so people who are looking for something other than that generally feel lost and not seeing, you know, they feel isolated. And so it’s refreshing to a lot of women to talk, we generally meet with two mentors at a time with whoever comes to
the Sisters of Hanna ministry and just talk, you know, about infertility, giving them options, really whatever they want. that’s the idea of Shiloh as well is to really bring in and just talk, let you know you’re not alone. There are people out here who are see you and fighting for you and want to help you heal from not only
IVF, but just infertility in general.
Yes, and to show you the range of options that are out there, even for infertility care, which I think we’ll get to here in a few moments, but it also gives the members of a couple somebody else to talk to besides each other, because you can drive yourself into a downward spiral pretty quick if you’re not careful, and so can be helpful in that respect as well. There was another organization that I think you mentioned as well, Desert Something?
it’s Springs in the Desert.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (08:35.842)
What are they all about?
So Springs in the Desert is another Catholic infertility ministry. They actually partner with dioceses sometimes and do retreats. They also have a weekly prayer group. So it is a live group that meets via Zoom that just prays for each other. You know, they’re looking at Christ over conception.
So it’s really a peer ministry group that is not focused on your infertility journey from what treatment you’re going to do next or where you are in your journey. It’s just wherever you are in your journey, come on in and we’re here to support you and help lift you up to Christ, even more so than getting that baby.
Exactly. When you said that, Christ over what? Conception. Say it again. Christ over conception. You know what it reminded me of? It reminded me of some of the people we’ve talked to who have had a journey away from an LGBT identity. And here’s how it’s similar. Some of them will tell you, oh, I became a Christian and I wanted to be rid of these feelings. And why doesn’t Jesus take these feelings away?
And finally they figure out that following Jesus is its own reward. And okay, okay, I’m still gonna follow you. At least I can follow you. I don’t know if these feelings will ever change, but I’m gonna follow you. And it’s just, they put Christ over straightness, so to speak. And so I find that.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (10:25.036)
There’s something going on. know, the spirit is at work here, you know, with all this crazy stuff we’re doing in the realm of sex and reproduction and everything. I mean, we’ve lost our minds as a culture. The spirit is going in here and like getting into all these little nooks and crannies where we goofed up and, you know, bringing the light, turn the light on in so many different ways. So I’m very excited about…
to know about these groups as well. You know, we’ll put links to them in our show notes and everything so that people can look them up if they’re looking for that. Tell us about another whole aspect of this is alternatives to IVF as medical treatment for infertility. Tell us a little bit about that. some of that information forward. And is that part of your ministry as well?
So it is not part of our ministry necessarily at this point, but there are great opportunities out there through natural family planning methods. There’s neighbor technology, which I can’t fully speak to them all because we didn’t use them, but there is neighbor technology. There’s also restorative reproductive medicine that both of them
end up looking for the root cause of infertility and trying to actually treat the infertility, which a lot of times is considered to be a symptom of some other disease process versus a disease itself. So they’re looking to treat that cause. So maybe you actually don’t continue to have infertility once you’re treated.
Ideal!
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (12:13.484)
What a concept!
I know. mean, so, you know, empowering to women, men and couples. When Ivy Efferle takes it, you think you’re empowered by it, but it really takes everything away from you and becomes the doctor’s choice versus your own.
Yeah. So that’s another aspect of what people can expect to find. they call you and they’re looking for some kind of guidance or something like that, that might be one of the things that you would mention to people. Here’s where you can get this stuff. Of course, you’re not a medical clinic. You don’t do that work. But you’re going to help people understand that this is a live option that is worthy of pursuing.
One of our clients had actually asked, he was able to get healing through Shiloh IVF, but he said, now, how can I share with a small group at my church? And I know there’s a couple people that are dealing with infertility. What resources can I share with them to help them choose an option other than IVF? And so we were able to provide resources.
for him, you know, for them to look at other things.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (13:41.408)
Right, right, right, very good. Now, you know, so far we’ve been talking about this at a very personal kind of level, but it sounds like you are striving to do everything in keeping with the teachings of the Church. Is that fair to say, Katie? Yeah, okay. So,
Yes.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (14:05.422)
Can you explain, well first of all, do you have any institutional support from any Catholic entity from a diocese or anything like that?
So we have been working with the National Catholic Bioethics Center with our materials. So we’ve been working with them. We have a Catholic deacon that’s on our board as well as the diocese where our president is. We have the bishop of that diocese.
approval, kind of a sign off on our ministry. So we’re trying to keep everybody aware of what we’re doing, making sure that we’re keeping on the up and up of Catholic teaching, but certainly anyone who comes to our ministry for healing and discernment.
we will receive with open arms.
Right, right, right, right. But I was just interested in how you kind of fit in with some of the other Catholic entities. The Ruth Institute is not officially Catholic. We get along well with Catholics. And we try to do everything in keeping with the teachings of the Church. But I’m not endorsed by the diocese or anything like that. Because like you said, we want to be able to deal with anyone who comes and who wants to learn about these things.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (15:41.506)
What I’d like to ask you is, if you would, is to give kind of a brief rundown of what Catholic teaching is in this area and what some of the reasons are and what some of the problems are and maybe some of the documents, know, whatever you’d like to say to just kind of give people a feel for what the Catholic Church has taught on this matter. Sure.
So at a layman’s level or common person’s level, one of the things that is brought up in regards to IVF is that IVF separates the unitive and procreative acts. So the thing that unifies the husband and wife, which is sexual intercourse, doesn’t create the children.
And, you know, as I had mentioned earlier, that is shown by the fact that the doctor is actually the one transferring the embryo and my husband is standing beside me holding my hand, you know, so our embryo is not created or our child is not created in the warm, loving embrace of their parents. They are created in the lab and sit there sometimes a few days, sometimes lots of years. So.
That’s one thing, because ultimately we are made to reproduce via sexual intercourse. That is just a form and a function.
so that’s one piece. The other piece is that IVF creates extra lives and doesn’t necessarily handle them with care. Right? So we have all these extra embryos that some people discard that some people just abandoned because they no longer can pay or want to pay for the cryopreservation.
Katie McMann (17:47.392)
So it really degrades the value of human life. I would say those are kind of the biggest things. It also, again, it doesn’t actually treat the infertility. I was recently watching the movie Joy. It’s on Netflix. It’s kind of about the create, about IVF and the founders of IVF and kind of
how IVF got started with the first test tube baby. but one of the things that was said was, you know, this is a cure for childlessness and it struck me the difference between childlessness and infertility. Certainly infertility causes childlessness, but if we’re just treating the childlessness, we’re very short-sighted. So those are kind of the big things of how
Mm-hmm.
Katie McMann (18:45.196)
the church sees it, as well as just feeling like the child is a right and an object versus a subject and a gift to be given and received. The places that I thought were, you I know early on in our journey, I thought that the church’s teaching was somewhat outdated and that it didn’t really
My husband and I were just as unified as a couple who was able to have sex and have a baby quickly, know, in fact, more so because we had to talk about things. You know, we were, we were unified in a way that couples who conceive easily wouldn’t be. But
Then I read these documents. They’re Donum Vitae is one, Dignitas Personae is another. And wow, they are amazingly beautiful documents. Not always easy to read, but…
very powerful in what they say about human life and how we are to treat human life and why we don’t believe that IVF is moral. And so I would really encourage anyone to dive into those documents and just see, because there’s true beauty in them and true beauty in what we’re saying humanity is.
And it can be very powerful if you let it seep in.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (20:32.438)
I agree 100 % and I can’t help but think of Cardinal Ratzinger, who if I’m not mistaken was the author of both of those documents or the CDF wrote them under his supervision. So I kind of hear his voice in the background, you know? And I’m also amazed at how prescient those documents were. They weren’t written the day before yesterday. I mean, they were there, they’ve been there for a while and he foresaw
what the commercialization of children would do and how it would affect relationships and all kinds of different things. There’s one other point that I want to emphasize or probe. I want to probe this with you. And that is that a lot of times when you say, I’m against IVF, what people will hear is, so you think my child shouldn’t exist.
You think my child shouldn’t exist. You think I shouldn’t exist. Whoa, hold on here. Every child, every child is a precious gift from God. We’re glad you’re here. But there are problems we ought to talk about. I’m interested to know, if you don’t mind sharing this, how old are your kids? And have you had this kind of conversation with them about you regret the method?
but you don’t regret them. You love them. You’re crazy about them. How do you as a mom, so far, have you had to deal with that? And just talk to us about how you deal with that as parents, because even people who disagree with the church’s teaching may have to think about this and have something to say to their kids about it. And maybe you’ve got some insight about that,
Yeah, it’s interesting because our children are ages eight, 12 and 17. Our 17 year old was adopted and our eight and 12 year olds were conceived through IVF. And some of the parallels are interesting. know, there were, we adopted our oldest at four days. She came home from the hospital to us and our
Katie McMann (22:47.864)
Children conceived through IVF were, you know, kind of on the lab shelf for a few days before they, you know, so they each kind of have their story that is outside of us to some extent. but
We have begun those discussions with them. One, to kind of share, we want to be upfront with our children. know, going through the adoption process, we had to figure out how we were going to talk to our oldest about her adoption story. And when we were going to tell her, and it’s just kind of been something that’s naturally flowed from the beginning.
But our younger two with IVF, you can kind of hide that, right? I mean, you don’t have to tell. They’re your biological children.
But if you don’t and something comes up
Do you really not want to have shared that? You know? and so while our children are biologically our children, there have been cases of kids get mixed up or there are, you know, and I want to be right with my children. I don’t, you know, so we have begun those conversations. It’s at their level. And I mean, honestly,
Katie McMann (24:23.768)
Part of the discussion has come because I have begun talking about this a lot more. Sharing our story and I want to share our story with our children. They can hear it in bits and pieces, but I’m like, if you hear me talking about this, this is what I’m talking about. And we all make decisions that we.
feel like we regret or in some capacity don’t agree with that same decision now. It’s tough to say that we regret fully IVF, right? Because we do have two amazing children from it and they are complete gifts and they are miracles in their own right. And they are beautiful pictures of humanity. So, you know, there, but there is healing.
that’s needed even with that and there may be healing that’s needed for them. And so I am in the process of both adoption and IVF. I have learned that being honest is indeed the best approach.
You can tailor your honesty. I don’t have to tell them every single thing about the IVF process and our story right now. They can get it in bits and pieces and certainly be open to asking questions. But I think we’re called to be honest and tell what happened, you know, and this is a beautiful story for them to learn from because we chose to do something.
that may have not been a great choice. We got gifts from it and we’re rebounding from it and we’re going to help others with it. Right. And so it’s not the end of the story for them or for us. Right. It’s like,
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (26:23.47)
That’s a good, yes.
We were able to get a gift even in our poor decision and we can help others and we should.
Right. Do you know, one thing I sometimes wonder about IVF kids, where their parents are not particularly open about it, know, or they find out about it, or the parents see nothing morally problematic about it. I feel like if I were an IVF kid and I knew I had 10 siblings in the freezer, I feel like I would feel something about that, maybe at some point. Like, I could be one of the ones in the freezer, but I’m not.
You know, that could be a complicated set of feelings. And by you talking with the kids about it, you’ve opened yourself to having that kind of conversation with them, you know, but you’re not leaving them on their own to manage that, to figure that out, to have some kind of survivor’s guilt or something like that. Right. Yeah. And I also…
Well, no, I don’t wonder. feel like…
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (27:38.766)
We imagine that we are getting God out of the picture. Right? We imagine that we are taking control of this whole situation and we’re choosing the right embryos and so we are the authors of life. But the fact is that God is still in this process because the embryos that survive, that’s on him. You know what I mean? I mean, because people implant a lot of embryos that don’t make it.
And so God’s still in the mix. The fact that you were gestated, the fact that you were born, God was participating in that, and God wants you to be here. God wants you to be here. We want you to be here. That part is
We can affirm that 100 % all the way along. I don’t know, I just feel like in a lot of these conversations, we’re avoiding the God part. We wanna say we’re the authors of our future, we’re the authors of our children, we’re the creators of our children. That is exactly what’s wrong with this whole thing, is it creates this illusion of control that is a deadly, in fact, a deadly illusion, because that’s what gives us permission to discard people and…
and all the other things that, know, and to do experiments on them and, you know, all these kind of things. We’re giving ourselves permission by saying God’s not involved, but he actually is involved. And we have the evidence right in front of us. You implanted four embryos and two of them died. And so God picked out which ones lived and that’s the end of it. You know, and so we thank God. We thank God for you. Thank God. Yeah.
Exactly. Yeah. mean, I think it’s, I think it’s hard though, to see that God is working in the midst of it, but also know that it’s not a.
Katie McMann (29:39.864)
Procedure or process that he would want us to participate in does that right? Does that make sense like? He’s writing straight with our crooked lines like this in go this is What we’ve come up with you know and he’s working in the midst of it just like he Always has and will continue to do but that doesn’t mean
Absolutely, absolutely.
Katie McMann (30:11.372)
it’s a great thing for us to do.
Right. It doesn’t mean it was okay for us to do it. But he is going to write straight with crooked lines. Do you know, the word that comes to my mind, Katie, is chasing. that you and I, each in our separate ways have had experience of being chastened by events. We thought we were in command of the situation. In fact, we never were. We didn’t. And it took something right, like right your face to convince you that you never were.
and the feeling of being chastened.
It’s not, it’s related to repentance, but it’s something more than repentance because it means it helps you, it puts you in your place, you know, and there’s a comfort and a rightness about being in your place because you’re not God. I don’t know. What do you think about that? Does that word ever come into your mind? I’m sure repentance does come to your mind, but does Chase, did that ever?
can’t say that the word chaste has come into my mind specifically, but the idea, the concept certainly has of like, now I guess I think now that I have kind of been put in my place to some extent or allowed to, allowed God to work with me in my place instead of trying to achieve a place, you know.
Katie McMann (31:48.17)
It feels there’s such a sense of relief in that, you know, of like, I am so glad he’s tackling all this and I don’t have to, know, just from a life in general of like, know he’s going to take care of it regardless of what happens. I don’t have to do the heavy lifting, which is a really great place to be. You know, it’s not always easy.
and certainly it doesn’t always feel great, but I think getting to that place where you don’t have to be in control of everything and you know that you can still have joy and hope and not be fully in control is okay. And if you mess up, it’s still okay.
Right, right, right, that’s right, that’s right, yeah, absolutely. Katie, is there anything else you’d like to add?
I think you have touched on a lot of the things. think a couple of the things for both people who may be experiencing infertility and considering IVF, would say, know, think really pursue all the options. Look at all of the options out there, you know.
Napro technology, natural family planning, restorative reproductive medicine. You know, I think really think about the options at each level and decide if that’s truly what you want for your family, you know, and actually do so with a critical thinking mindset instead of trying to put the red flags aside, dive into the red flags and
Katie McMann (33:49.142)
really find out what you think about them. and for those people who have participated in an IVF know that you are not alone. There are plenty of us who have gone through IVF and have had reservations come up at any point in the process. You’re welcome to come to Shiloh IVF for discernment or healing just to feel like you’re not alone in the process. I know
When I talk with friends and family about my convictions regarding IVF these days, they kind of look at me like, you have two kids. How can you feel?
Feelings of conviction regarding IVF, know, why why that so? You’re not alone in that and for those of you who may know somebody who has infertility or Has experienced IVF I would say pray for them be a friend Listen ask questions. Don’t assume, you know Everything don’t assume you know what treatment plan they need
Cause a lot of times they don’t know and they’ve been there at all research about how you can support someone with infertility or share with them Shiloh IVF and you know, anything.
Yes, I think knowing how to be a good friend is a very important part of what you’re teaching people, of what you’re helping people to see, you know, because you’re opening people’s eyes to the fact that the standard narrative is not the whole story. You know, the narrative that’s being driven by the sexual revolution, that’s being driven by the fertility industry, you know, that’s not the whole story. And so if you’ve got other feelings besides the approved feelings, the people at Shiloh IVF,
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (35:48.162)
can be there to help you discern and be a friend to you, and teach you to be a friend to others as well. Katie, this has been a very fascinating conversation. Give us the website one more time so that people can find you.
Sure, Shiloh IVF.com. The Shiloh IVF ministry is at ShilohIVF.com.
That sounds great. I want to thank you so much for your courage and for the discernment that you and your husband have gone through. I want you to give your husband my very best regards. He sounds like a really great guy and I assume he’s supportive of your ministry. Yeah, yeah. so, yeah, I just, my hat is off to you guys starting something so new and innovative and really, really needed. So I thank you so much for being my guest on today’s episode.
absolutely.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (36:38.796)
of the Dr. J Show.
Thank you so much for having me.
Have a question or a comment? Leave it in the comments, and we’ll get back to you!
Subscribe to our YouTube playlist: @RuthInstitute
Follow us on Social Media:
https://www.instagram.com/theruthinstitute
https://www.facebook.com/TheRuthInstitute
https://theruthinstitute.locals.com/newsfeed
Press:
NC Register: https://www.ncregister.com/author/jennifer-roback-morse
Catholic Answers: https://www.catholic.com/profile/jennifer-roback-morse
The Stream: https://stream.org/author/jennifer-roback-morse/
Crisis Magazine: https://crisismagazine.com/author/jennifer-roeback-morse
Father Sullins’ Reports on Clergy Sexual Abuse: https://ruthinstitute.org/resource-centers/father-sullins-research/
Buy Dr. Morse’s Books:
The Sexual State: https://ruthinstitute.org/product/the-sexual-state-2/
Love and Economics: https://ruthinstitute.org/product/love-and-economics-it-takes-a-family-to-raise-a-village/
Smart Sex: https://ruthinstitute.org/product/smart-sex-finding-life-long-love-in-a-hook-up-world/
101 Tips for a Happier Marriage: https://ruthinstitute.org/product/101-tips-for-a-happier-marriage/
101 Tips for Marrying the Right Person: https://ruthinstitute.org/product/101-tips-for-marrying-the-right-person/
Listen to our podcast:
Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-ruth-institute-podcast/id309797947
Spotify – https://open.spotify.com/show/1t7mWLRHjrCqNjsbH7zXv1
Subscribe to our newsletter to get this amazing report: Refute the Top 5 Gay Myths https://ruthinstitute.org/refute-the-top-five-myths/
Get the full interview by joining us for exclusive, uncensored content on Locals: https://theruthinstitute.locals.com/support
About the Ruth Institute
The Ruth Institute is a global non-profit organization, leading an international interfaith coalition to defend the family and build a civilization of love.
Jennifer Roback Morse has a Ph.D. in economics and has taught at Yale and George Mason University. She is the author of The Sexual State and Love and Economics – It Takes a Family to Raise a Village.
To get more information or schedule an interview with Dr. Morse, contact media@ruthinstitute.org.
Refute the top 5 Gay Myths With Our Ebook & Get Our Newsletter
Join us on Locals for exclusive content*!
*Censorship free!
Get all of our video content on Rumble*
*Also censorship free
