Alex Peyton’s younger brother Oliver was molested by their parish priest. In this horrific yet extremely important interview, Alex explains the circumstances that led to Oliver’s victimization. He delineates the “grooming” techniques of the predator priest. He shares intimately of how his life was physically, mentally, and spiritually traumatized by his brother’s ordeal. Clergy pedophilia affects every member of the family.
Action Items
- Sign up for our weekly newsletter here: ruthinstitute.org/newsletter
- Visit the Ruth Institute resources on Clergy Sex Abuse
- If you have a story of clergy pedophilia, submit it to us at info@ruthinstitute.org
- Share this story, and other stories of other people, like Faith Hakesley, who experienced abuse, but are now speaking out.
Transcript:
Alex Peyton (00:00):
I’m sharing my rage, because I was angry and I want you to be angry too. And I don’t want you to tell me not to be angry. I don’t care about your cousin or the fact that he’s a priest. Right. And I’m going to think badly about every priest right now. Cause I want to, and there’s nothing you can do about it, right? Hey, don’t get too angry. Remember to pray? No, I’m going to be angry and I’m not going to pray right now. Our priest is very nice. He doesn’t molest children. Yeah. Well, I would have told you the same thing about mine four years ago.
Intro Audio (00:30):
[inaudible]
Dr. Morse (00:32):
Hi everyone. I’m Dr. Jennifer Roback Morris, founder and president of the Ruth Institute. And welcome to today’s episode of the Dr. Jay show. My guest today is Mr. Alex Payton. I’ve invited Alex to join me on the show because Alex and his family have had a very traumatic experience over the last few years. And it’s something that I wanted to share with you. He’s willing to share it with you. And my point in having him on is for all of us to understand just what it is that childhood sex abuse does to not only the victim, but his family. And so, um, Mr. Peyton young, Mr. Peyton is willing to share that experience with us of, of what it’s meant to him and his family. And also what we can do. We as lay people, not clergy, not bishops, but just ordinary folk in the pews. What we can do that might be helpful and some things that we should avoid. So anyway, um, Alex, Peyton, thank you so much for me. My guest today. Welcome to the Dr. Jay show.
Dr. Morse (01:33):
Oh, it’s so it’s great to have you on, I really appreciate it. Um, I’m acquainted with your mom and dad. Um, they were some of the very first people I interviewed when I was starting to try to do video interviews and the interviews really crude technologically, but it was a great, it was great content that they, that they gave for us. So, so I appreciate you joining us today. So if you don’t mind, um, tell me a little bit about your family before, if I could say this before all this happened, uh, w w what was your family like?
Alex Peyton (02:05):
It was, we were a very peaceful, I, that would be the best way to say it. We were on cruise control. You could say, uh, just living our lives, having a good time, nothing really. When road bumps hit, we just kinda got over them. They were tiny road bumps to anyway. Um, it really was just a very peaceful nondramatic existence. You could say.
Dr. Morse (02:33):
And, and your family is a Catholic family, and you have how many brothers and sisters?
Alex Peyton (02:37):
I have five other brothers and sisters. So six, six total in the family.
Dr. Morse (02:42):
And you’re a homeschool family.
Alex Peyton (02:44):
Yes, we were home. I was, um, the, the young, my younger siblings are all probably going to be homeschooled throughout all of high school. I went to, um, John Paul, the great academy for my senior year. And Oliver went to, um, John Paul, the grade for a year as well. So I graduated from a private school.
Dr. Morse (03:02):
Okay. Okay. But for most of your child,
Alex Peyton (03:05):
Most of our childhood, we were homeschooled all the way up. Okay.
Dr. Morse (03:08):
And so people who are part of the homeschool community will kind of recognize a family like yours, the big minivan, the big man, and the big gang of kids. And the party starts when Peyton show up. And
Alex Peyton (03:21):
I would say we really were a typical just homeschool family living out in the country. Yeah. Peaceful doing school.
Dr. Morse (03:29):
Yeah. Yeah. And you’re here and you’re here in Louisiana. You guys are somewhere in the Lafayette diocese is that
Alex Peyton (03:37):
We’re in the Lafayette diocese. We’re in, um, we live in Lebow, so Northern St. Landry parish.
Dr. Morse (03:42):
Okay. Very well. So a few years ago, um, your brother made, um, confided something in you. So tell people just a little bit about when he chose to confide in you and, and roughly what he told you. So
Alex Peyton (04:00):
Leading up to my marriage, um, and I’m, I’m not going to go on, on with the dates cause they, it all, it’s, it’s all melded together. I can’t even separate what the date, you know, the years were, but, um, leading up to my marriage and my brother was, um, just not himself and just tell he wasn’t himself very angry. Um, had some kind of destructive behaviors, um, alcohol, things like that. And, um, I I’d asked multiple times what’s going on, what’s wrong, you know, all those different things. And didn’t really get an answer. And it was the night before my bachelor party or two nights before my bachelor party, I was waiting for my friends from Florida to come in and I want to say it was 1:00 AM, one 30 in the morning. And my brother and I were outside smoking cigarettes. Um, and, um, I remember I looked at him and I was like, what the hell is going on?
Alex Peyton (05:02):
Like, I’m about to get married. Um, I’m going to have a family and like, that’s going to have to be my main focus. Like I can’t keep worrying about you. I can’t keep asking about what’s wrong with you. Like, you’ve got to, you’ve got to, something’s got to give you gotta tell me something, like, there’s something on your, on your mind, on your soul, something’s going on. Like, you need to let me know now, you know, and I didn’t expect anything major. I thought it was just, I don’t know, I’m depressed or something, you know, like, like just some tea, something, some young person will be going through that isn’t really, I mean, not that it’s not major, but nothing like this. And, um, I remember he just, he was silent for a little while and they just started crying and he just looked at me.
Alex Peyton (05:44):
He said, father, Mike molested me. And I was just like that father Mike molested me in the story. And, um, I remember I looked at him and I said, for real, like, are you you’re being serious? Like, because I mean, that was right. Right, right. Um, and then he started crying and he said, yes. Wow. And, um, and then I lost it. I started, I started throwing things. I was yelling, not at him, but just in general yelling. Um, I, I, I threw a glass ashtray against the, the car port and I just, I didn’t even know. I didn’t know what else to do. I just went, I went buzzard for lack of better words. So I just went absolutely insane. Um, and so that was, that was the moment. And after that, um, I called my wife, wasn’t my wife at the time. But, um, I called her first and she freaked out because she, me and Oliver were all friends. We were a friend group and all of her help hook me and my now wife up, he was the one that really pushed us together. So we were, we were really a friend group, you know, we’d all go out and do things together. Um, and Oliver made me tell dad, Oliver made me promise dad that he wouldn’t leave the house after, after figuring out. Cause he was scared that dad would go kill father Mike, and then dad would be in jail. Well,
Alex Peyton (07:10):
So when dad came out,
Dr. Morse (07:13):
But hold on your brother, just, just to pause here and kind of take a breath, you know that, uh, I’m just asking the viewers to think about the dynamics of what’s going on in this family. Okay. And so your brother wanted you to be the one to tell your dad, he didn’t want to tell your dad.
Alex Peyton (07:30):
No, he, he, I told him when we had to tell dad and he was concerned, he was worried. His biggest concern was that dad would go kill him. And then dad would be the one to go to jail. Yeah.
Dr. Morse (07:44):
Yeah. It’s your dad. Is your dad the kind of person who would go kill someone?
Alex Peyton (07:48):
No. No, not, not. I mean, I mean now, you know, I’d say, I’d say no, but I don’t know what he was feeling after a year and this,
Dr. Morse (08:02):
But your brother, your brother’s been sitting with this set of thoughts for a long time. Can you tell people roughly how long it was between the time it happened to the time he told you?
Alex Peyton (08:13):
I think at this point it was close to three years.
Dr. Morse (08:17):
Yes. Yes. So he’s been working this in his mind. He, in his mind, he’s, he’s thinking about if I tell this might happen or, or, or whatever, you know, but a lot is a lot of mental stuff has gone on in that period of time while he’s thinking anyway. Yeah. Okay. So what did your dad do?
Alex Peyton (08:39):
You know? So dad handles dad is able to handle things quite well. Um, and all I remember is he sat down because the night’s a blur for me as well, but he, dad had sat down and, um, Oliver told him, father Mike molested me. And then dad said, can you leave us alone for a second, Alex? And I walked off and at this point I was done too. I called my soon to be wife at that point as well. And so I spoke with her while dad spoke with Oliver, um, and I, and, and started asking questions and figuring out things. Um, but he handled it. He was in the moment then and there handled it extremely strongly better than I did. He didn’t throw anything. Um, so yeah, he, he, he was, he was tough for the rock here and all this. So he
Dr. Morse (09:36):
Just, just to get some background, let’s say a few words about, about your dad. Okay. It’s my understanding that your dad has some kind of background in law enforcement.
Alex Peyton (09:46):
Yeah, he was, um, he was a juvenile parole officer for awhile, um, and adult probation and parole officer, um, as well. Um, and, uh, he has other background in, in, in law enforcement as well. So, um, at, at the time he was, if I’m not mistaken, still working as a adult probation and parole officer.
Dr. Morse (10:09):
I see. And, and your father also has some relationship to father Mike.
Alex Peyton (10:14):
Yeah. He,
Dr. Morse (10:17):
This is an important aspect of yourself, of your family story. What was their relationship like
Alex Peyton (10:23):
Dad, dad was, um, father Mike’s deacon and a father. Mike also encouraged dad to, you know, enter the diaconate as well and continued through the diaconate whenever dad had any doubts or concerns or anything like that. So we had been close with father Mike for years and years, even before he was the deacon, because we were at that parish even before he was ordained. Um, so yeah, so we, we were, we were all very, very close yes.
Dr. Morse (10:55):
As to the sense of betrayal about,
Alex Peyton (11:00):
So the fact that he even told me, uh, and the manner in which he did, I can tell, I could tell being there that it was painful, that he even had to say it. Yeah. It was not something he really wanted to tell. It’s not like he said, oh, I’ve been waiting to tell no, like it was, it was difficult. And you can tell, just even tell me and, and, and let me in all this.
Dr. Morse (11:22):
And he, and he trusts, obviously he trusted you, which is, which is why he was able to tell you. But you have a sense that he, he could have kept that secret a lot longer.
Alex Peyton (11:31):
Not without self-destructing, but yeah. But yeah. Oh yeah. I’ve, I’ve told him before and I’ve told other people this, he he’d have been, we’d have found him dead in a ditch. Yeah. At some point. Yeah. I mean, you, you cannot hold, you cannot, you cannot hold something like that for, you know, that long. No, that’s right.
Dr. Morse (11:52):
That’s right. But, but you, the way you described it, you significantly prompted him
Alex Peyton (11:57):
To, to reveal and it took significant prompting on your part. I took a lot. It took more than just that night. Like it was, uh, it was a long, it was months of years of of asking what’s wrong. What’s wrong.
Dr. Morse (12:11):
Yeah. So, and so you look back on it now and you can see that, you know, roughly w you know, when this must’ve started, because you had been asking him questions. So how, how old are we talking about? How old was he when he, you know, roughly looking back on it, calculating how old was he when he was molested
Alex Peyton (12:33):
16, 16, 16.
Dr. Morse (12:36):
Okay. And had he been close to father Mike? I mean, were you surprised to hear this about father Mike? Let’s put it that way.
Alex Peyton (12:46):
You know, when, when you look back, I’m not surprised, but in the moment, absolutely. Um, so father Mike exhibited characteristics of grooming, but in the moment you add a Roman collar to that and his age, and he becomes just a socially inept old person, if that makes sense, so
Dr. Morse (13:23):
Mean, would be an example of a behavior that you kind of overlooked at the time, but looking back on it, you go, eh, there, it was me an example,
Alex Peyton (13:34):
Two things come to mind. At one point I was as a high schooler. Um, uh, actually when I got back from college in Florida, so I had just gotten back to Louisiana and I had a girlfriend that my parents didn’t like, right. Typical stuff. Um, girlfriend was not my now wife. Right. So, so clear that up. But, um, girlfriend, my parents, and like, and I remember I had, I had went over to, uh, father Mike’s house to drink coffee. Um, which was something I typically do if I was bored and he would invite me. And, um, we were talking about that. And, uh, he said, you know, if you ever need just a place to stay, um, you can come sleep at my house. I have an extra bedroom, you can sleep here and we can have fun and yelling. And, you know, I declined, no those things.
Alex Peyton (14:32):
Um, but something that just, it, when you, when you look back at it, that’s just not something, not something I’d expect from a priest, especially an older priest. Now I was of age at this point. Right. 19. Right. Um, but it still isn’t, it’s still something that’s kind of, I don’t, it just kind of sets you off a little bit. Um, and then the second one is more obvious. Um, and that was the touch. He touched a lot, um, because I was an altar server for him. For years, I trained the opposite service. He touched a lot. You walk into a door, he, he guide you through with his hand on your lower back. Right. Um, you’re, you’re an older server. You’re tying your, the ropes on your robes. He wants to try to help you. And of course, right at that point, he’s right by your crotch, um, you know, uh, your income profession. And after confession’s over, he puts his hand on your knee and goes, good confession. You’re like, oh, wait a minute.
Dr. Morse (15:32):
This is face-to-face confession.
Alex Peyton (15:34):
He only did. Face-to-face confessions. You can request through, um, you know, like you could do it through like a screen, but he never did that. He just opened the door and you’d go sit in. I hated face to face compassions anyway. Um, but no, he would just go sit, sit in the chair and you just plopped yourself across from him. And
Dr. Morse (15:52):
Then he would touch you at the end of
Alex Peyton (15:53):
Confession. You just put your, put your hand on your, on your knee, just be like, oh, good confession. And it’s just subtle enough where you’re like, oh, he’s just, he’s just some old guy who kind of doesn’t know that, like we have boundaries these days. Right? Like, that’s your, that’s kinda what you process. You’re like, oh, that’s uncomfortable. I kind of don’t want him helping me time. I wrote right by my crotch. So you just kinda like push away from them, you know? Um, but, but you were able to excuse that as he’s kind of like a grandpa who doesn’t know his limits, you know what, no harm just, we don’t do that these days. Right. We don’t just touch people. Um, and then of course there was the money. He would give us money on our birthday and give us a hundred dollars and tell us, we have to keep it a secret. We’d have to keep it a secret from, from, from other kids at the parish. And he’s given it to us because we’re the deacon’s son, or he’s given it to us because we help around the church. And, and, but
Dr. Morse (16:48):
Did, did, did he ask you to keep it secret from your parents also?
Alex Peyton (16:51):
Yes. And the reason he did that and, and realize when I’m receiving this money, unlike 14, 15, right? My brother’s even younger. So think about how we’re interpreting this. He goes, if, if they know I’m giving you so much money, they’re going to tell me to stop giving you money because they know I’m just an old priest that made sense in my mind. I said, you’re absolutely right. Cause my mom and dad, if they, they would say something like, we shouldn’t be giving you that he’s an old priest. You’re right, right. Makes total sense. Like, in my mind, I’m like, absolutely, I don’t want a hundred bucks every year. Right, right, right, right, right. I got games to buy. Right.
Dr. Morse (17:30):
But looking back on it, but looking back on it for me, isn’t it for me as an adult for, you know, looking at it and probably you now too, the biggest thing is secret from your parents.
Alex Peyton (17:40):
I was, I, he succeeded, I kept a secret,
Dr. Morse (17:43):
Major red
Alex Peyton (17:44):
Flag. I kept a secret and in return I got money for it. I mean, that’s really happened. It was a transaction. He was buying my secrecy. Right. And, and you know, me at that age, I’m like, heck yeah, I’m about to go buy a game. Right. Yeah.
Dr. Morse (17:58):
And you, at that age, not realizing that what he has just figured out is that you can be bought to keep a secret. Okay. So that’s part of the exploratory process on his part. Yeah. So he did that with you and you know, that he did that with your brother as well. Okay. Okay.
Alex Peyton (18:18):
Absolutely. And, and, you know, looking back that’s when you go, okay. Like that, like I, like, I see it all, all there. And then not just that he would bring, he would bring my brother and I out to eat. Um, we’d go to Steamboat and he dropped, I mean, we, we get three or four appetizers. I, one time got two entrees just cause I was young and I wants to stretch out and see what he’d pay for. You know? I mean, you know, I mean, I could, I mean, imagine you’re your parish, priest takes you out for Sunday lunch and you’re eating escargo and a filet mignon, you know? Um, but we were young and I, I loved escargo. I like blaming yawns. Right. I wasn’t gonna reject it. Um, and mom and dad knew we were, you know, he was taking us out to go, to go eat, to celebrate whatever the occasion was. And sometimes mom and dad would be there too. But I mean, in the, in the moment you’re like, this is just some old priest who’s lonely and he just wants to invite us out to eat.
Dr. Morse (19:15):
Right. Right. Was there ever alcohol involved Alex?
Alex Peyton (19:19):
Oh, absolutely. So, so he was an alcoholic and we knew it really? Yo yes. He was an alcoholic. It was so obvious alcohol. Okay. Um, that, that was never, that was never, it’s not like that was nothing. That’s not like now we figured out women. Oh my gosh. He was an alcoholic. No, he was always an alcoholic. Um, there were times where I could smell it on his breath before Sunday mass, which is in the morning, which is in the morning. Right. So there’s no, that, that was always in play once again though, once again, though, how, how did we justify that in our minds? He’s an old priest. Who’s lonely. So he turns to BU once, once again, see, in our, in our mind, I wouldn’t do that to a person who didn’t have a Roman collar or by the way, I still do that old drunk needs to get himself together. Right. Like he needs to stop that. That’s, that’s not right. That’s not like don’t, you know, that’s uncouth, but for a priest, gosh, he’s lonesome. I mean,
Dr. Morse (20:22):
And, and yet in a way, honestly, you should be holding the Roman priest to a higher standard. Yeah. It’s like, okay, you’re, you’re acting in persona Christi. You really should sober up, man.
Alex Peyton (20:33):
Everyone in the parish knew. And it was kind of something we pushed on the rug, but when I’d go to his house, I’d have, I’d have alcohol. I liked
Dr. Morse (20:42):
Alcohol
Alex Peyton (20:42):
At his house. I had an alcoholic at 16 or so. And, and it was, it wasn’t, I never a lot. Um, but I’d have scotch. Um, I
Dr. Morse (20:52):
Did your mom and dad know that. Did your
Alex Peyton (20:54):
Parents know that? No. So another, you know, so another, another thing is you want to talk about just him reading the room and knowing an environment. Right. He, I think, I think father Mike is, is dumb, but I don’t think he’s, he’s not Wiley. Right. If that makes sense. So I, I, he he’s he’s, he’s like a serpent, I guess. I still think he’s books, book dumb. Right. But in terms of grooming, the man knew what he was doing. So we’re out in the country. Right, right. So alcohol, you know, and, and I come from a family that doesn’t drink much at all. I mean like my, my dad and mom, I never grew up where they drank. Right. Um, but beer or maybe some whiskey was never something that was very taboo. Right. Like at 16 years old, you, you you’ll take a sip of your dad’s scotch or you’ll, you know, you’re, you’re, it’s not something that’s very like taboo out here. Um, and he would give, he would give me alcohol, um, father, Mike and I gladly liked the scotch because I liked the idea of drinking scotch. I thought it was fancy. Right. Um, and once again, he was like, well, you know, you can, you can drink with me because I’m the priest, I’m your parish priest. So it’s okay when you’re in my rectory.
Dr. Morse (22:19):
But did you tell your parents, did your parents know you were drinking with him
Alex Peyton (22:24):
And
Dr. Morse (22:24):
Did he say that? Did he, did he say that it was that just understood?
Alex Peyton (22:29):
No. He said he, he made it clear. He, you know, no, no. Don’t, don’t tell your parents, okay. Read my rectory though. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like we’re, you know, don’t want it. Cause they might, they might say that you can’t. And he, we had multiple times to where Steamboat employees had stopped him because he would order drinks and then try to give them to me. And the waitresses saw that and were like, no, you can’t do that. And, and there were times where he had told me if they ask for your ID, just say, you don’t have it. And I’ll tell them, I’ll tell them that you’re 21. I mean, okay.
Dr. Morse (23:07):
And so then you went off to college, um, did Oliver’s involvement with father Mike continue then after you had gone off to college? Yeah.
Alex Peyton (23:16):
Now that I was gone all over was the only one left as the quote-unquote helper. Um, and then of course, once he could drive at 16, he was able to drive himself there. Um, but it was obvious too, that father Mike was obviously grooming him. He was grooming me, but I don’t think it’s not because he wanted me. Um, because he, he invited all of her over in a way that he never invited me. He’d invite me over for a cup of coffee in the afternoon. He tried to invite Oliver out to dinner.
Dr. Morse (23:54):
And, and so I want to pause here and just say to the audience that are watching us, you know, that, um, I didn’t necessarily expect that this is where the conversation was exactly going to go, Alex. But what you’ve just done is present to our followers, to our audience, a very clear picture with some very specific points about how the grooming process works. Right. And so for parents and for young people yourselves, you know, um, the, the big red flags would be telling the child because you guys were kids at that point telling the kid, don’t tell your parents. And that is a major red flag. Um, and making the person feel like they’re special, they’re set aside. Um, and, and I’m going to indulge this person because they’re so special. All of that is part of the grooming process. So, so I, I thank you for, for sharing this information with people, because I think, you know, it just, um, you know, like you said, you didn’t think anything about it at the time.
Dr. Morse (24:52):
And obviously this is weirdly, you know, there’s nothing criminal about what he was doing at that point. Right. And, but when you look at it in a wider light, you see that it’s, it’s part of a larger process. So, so, so let’s go, go now back to, um, Oliver’s told you about this talk to P T tell us a little bit about the impact that it had on you personally, um, that, and what you saw happening in Oliver, what you saw happening to the other members of your family. Because I think sometimes people think clergy sex abuse, oh, let’s, let’s put the bad guys in jail and kill the people and say, we’re sorry, and we’re done. And, and people don’t realize how many people are affected and how many different ways they’re affected. So tell people just, what did this mean in your family’s life, Alex?
Alex Peyton (25:44):
So, you know, oddly enough, and this, this might sound like over-exaggeration, but in thinking I’ve fought on this a lot, our family wasn’t prepared. We were prepared for this in some ways and unprepared and others, we were prepared for it. And that we were already a very close knit family, very close knit family. We were all homeschooled. We all loved each other. We all played together. Eh, we’re very close knit. I have no issues with my mom or dad other than your regular teenage stuff where I hate them for a good five minutes for telling me no. But other than that, everything was great. So we weren’t used to even having to unify together to overcome something. Right. Um, we never even tested that unity out. Um, so we were prepared in some ways, but unprepared because we we’d never been hit with something that’s big.
Alex Peyton (26:30):
So, I mean, it rocked the ship, right? Dead stop. Um, every day was like a new challenge, a new something happening. Um, either mom and dad were on the phone all day long with calls and calling people talking to this. I was, at this point I was married and I was going through OCD as a result of this, which I didn’t figure out till later. And so I was, I had a, um, I’d sit down for two or three hours and legitimately blackout, just thinking about everything. I wouldn’t obsess over all the details obsessing over, how do we get them obsessed over what father Mike was doing at the moment? What was the Bishop doing? How was Oliver? Um, and you know, it’s weird. I’ll tell you, I’ll tell you something that made me really upset. One day, I remember crying for like an hour after this, and this will give you a good example. I remember my sister, Mary Helen, and don’t ask me her age. Cause I don’t know it. But my sister, Mary Helen, my little sister, Mary Helen, one day, I called her to figure out how things were going. And she was upset with my mom and I said, what’s wrong? And she said every day for the past week, and now this was about a week or two after we figured out about Oliver. She said every day for the past week, mom hasn’t fixed us lunch until one o’clock.
Alex Peyton (27:59):
And I broke down into tears. Why is that important? Or why did that affect me? Because we always ate lunch at like 1130 and mom always had it ready.
Dr. Morse (28:12):
Yeah. And
Alex Peyton (28:14):
So it’s all detail, but it, it, it killed me. It crushed me. Yeah,
Dr. Morse (28:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. The routine of your family disrupted. Yeah. Did Mary Helen know what was going on?
Alex Peyton (28:29):
I, I don’t. I stayed away from it. I knew that it was, it had to be mom and dad. Um, um, all I know is I think at some point afterwards, mom and dad had told her everything’s okay, we got this father, Mike did something bad to Oliver, but we’re taking care of it. He’s going to be, we’re going to, we’re going to take care of him and we’re going to take care of my Oliver. I think th I think to some extent that now she’s older now she’s 18 now. So possibly she knows more. Uh, but I haven’t spoken. I wouldn’t, I don’t even think I’d be able to speak right now to her about any of this. Um, but I know obviously she’s older and she knows, she knows there’s a little war going on then. I mean, she’s, she’s, she’s seen the news.
Dr. Morse (29:12):
Right, right, right. Right. So, so, and Mary Helen is one of the older of your younger siblings. So they’re even younger
Alex Peyton (29:19):
Siblings, right under Oliver. Oh,
Dr. Morse (29:21):
Okay. Okay. So it’s Alex Oliver, Mary Helen, and then three younger ones. Okay. So your mom and dad are trying to protect those little ones because they don’t need this information. They don’t, they can’t process this information. It doesn’t mean anything, but their little lives, their little world is disrupted because mom hasn’t fixed his lunch when she normally does. And that’s like, you know, our, our little boat, our little normal is, is gone. Our normal has gone now. Yeah.
Alex Peyton (29:51):
Yeah. And that, that was, it was that, that little, that little detail that was just, that was almost just too much, um, for me to handle. But I mean, mom was on the phones constantly. She was angry all the time. Dad was angry all the time. Not at anyone in particular, because that’s, the problem is we didn’t know who to be angry at. So we were just all angry. Right.
Dr. Morse (30:12):
Right. Something happened that shouldn’t have happened. Something happened that shouldn’t have happened. And when we’re mad about it and we can’t figure out what to do about it. Yeah.
Alex Peyton (30:21):
And then the kids were just kind of existing. They could see that mom was crying. Sometimes that dad was crying. Sometimes that, that, that, that I was calling there were whispers going on. Right. We were going into other rooms. Um, so the immediate effect to the, to the family unit, it really, in my opinion, from, from me seeing, and of course everything’s going to be exaggerated from my point of view too, because I, I, I was, I was destroyed at this point as well. Right. So every little thing seemed like the end of the world to me. Um, it was, it was for me a sign that we were never going to go back to pre figuring out, right. Like it was done. Like we might be able to, we’re going to stabilize. We’re going to have a new normal, but I don’t want a new normal, I don’t like new normals. I want old normal, everything was fine. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Right. Um, so I don’t want to find a new normal, I want the old norm. Right. So, but it was, it was, that was the realization for me that we were about to enter into, into something else. Right. We’re going to have to regroup.
Dr. Morse (31:24):
Right, right. Yeah. It was never going to go back to the way it was. No, there’s no way that it’s ever going to go back to the way it was. Yeah. And that’s a lot for a kid to figure out. I mean, whatever, the first thing in your life is, that’s like that it’s, it’s going to be a lot, but this is legitimately a lot for anybody. Yeah. Now, um, you know, there are a number of aspects to what happened next, you know, to how the diocese reacted and how the public reacted, uh, what I’d like to do if you don’t mind is just to focus on the, on the lay community, not so much on the diocese, right. Because I mean, we, we can go there if we want to later, but, but in, in our work here at the Ruth Institute, we, we deal with clergy, sex abuse, you know, a lot, or we try to, from our, you know, kind of unique academic perspective that we have on it.
Dr. Morse (32:09):
And people are always about, you know, gosh, why, why doesn’t the Bishop do this or that, or the other, why doesn’t the church do this or that. But there’s also an aspect of your story about the lay people, you know, w what the community did and did not do. Um, and so let’s start with the positive. Okay. Tell people some of the things that happened, where people in your community were helpful to you, what are some of the specific things that people did that were helpful to you? And so that people can be thinking about that if they have to deal with this in their own community.
Alex Peyton (32:41):
So I’ll, I’ll say, first of all, we’re on the positives, but it’s going to have to start with a little bit of negative. Um, so when I mentioned community and the community, our immediate community was radio silence. So not a single person in our local community or in our church parish at the time at St. Peter’s our, in our little town did anything. They did nothing. They didn’t reach out or anything. So it’s, so when I say community, I’m going to be very broad with community, but because if you’re talking about our localized community, they did nothing. So the community though, um, the, the most supportive people, and I’m sure my mom and dad might have different opinions of it. But for me, those who contacted me, who I felt the best were those who followed almost a formula that was really helpful to me.
Alex Peyton (33:42):
And it was initial contact, um, initial contact. And then they shared in my anger, right? Like, like, you know, uh, you know, friends where it’s very colorful language. I won’t repeat. But those friends that did the initial contact, didn’t beat around the Bush either. You know, like, Hey, so how are things going? No, you know how things are going, right. But Hey, saw the news and then shared in my anger. And then if you need anything, let me know. They didn’t ask any more questions. They didn’t ask it. Well, sometimes someone asked how was Oliver, which is very acceptable question, but, um, it was almost those who followed that formula. Those were the ones that I in the future shared more with polled, opened up a little more about myself with, um, and it was really that initial formula. Hey, saw the news short little thing on sharing the rage with me. Right. Like we need, like, we’re going to get them.
Dr. Morse (34:42):
And so if I could just put a name on that, it was, you called it, sharing your rage and that’s, that’s true. But another part of it is sharing your desire that justice will be done. Right. It’s a, it’s a desire for justice. Yeah. Yes. So some of the, some of the things, what are some of the things that were not so helpful, so people can know what to avoid or think about, because I heard your, your mom and dad shared a few things with me that I just couldn’t believe. But anyway, go ahead, Alex.
Alex Peyton (35:11):
So I will share with you some that I’ve heard, and I will let, I will tell you that I have responded to some of these people in ways that I know we’re probably probably on my end were a little much. Um, but they came across so disgusting that I had to it. I couldn’t, I couldn’t help, but make sure that they knew that this is not something to be said. I’ll give you a couple examples. Um, Hey father, so, and so said, he’d meet with you. If you need to talk, don’t leave the church. I don’t want to talk to your priest. Don’t offer me to talk to your priest. Don’t talk to your priest about me then tell me. No, no, thanks. Um, Hey, sorry about everything that’s happened. Um, I hope you don’t feel this way about all priests. My cousin’s a priest and he’s a good priest.
Alex Peyton (36:03):
I don’t care about your cousin or the fact that he’s a priest. Right. And I’m going to think badly about every priest right now, because I want to, and there’s nothing you can do about it. Right. I don’t know. I, I know I’m going to think badly about your cousin right now, and there’s not a single thing you can do about it. You know? Um, uh, the questions, Hey, don’t get too angry. Remember to pray. No, no, I’m going to be angry and I’m not going to pray right now. I don’t know what else to tell you, your message changed nothing. Um, so those, those sorts of things, or when things came out, we started expressing rage. You know, I’d get a message. Hey, um, just want to let you know, not everyone in the diocese is bad. And I know, I know what happened to y’all is bad.
Alex Peyton (36:47):
Um, but maybe don’t try to disparage, you know, the whole church. We’re not, I’m not disparaging the whole church there don’t, don’t send me those messages. Right. Um, so things, things like that, um, you know, relating to my, my father, Bob and our church is a really good pre-show should come to my church now. No. Right. I want to come to your church. Right. Um, and I will share since I think you said there’s other people have other experiences. Um, the other thing that just absolutely tore me apart and Oliver got this too. Um, and I know that this will happen both ways, except Catholics probably won’t do it with the Protestants because we know that we have a lot of issues right now. Um, but our Protestant friends, and of course, I know that this was good, meaning I know the intentions are good.
Alex Peyton (37:37):
Have you thought about converting? Yeah. Right, right, right. And, and, and I know that this has, I know that if, if, if, if I know that if I was a Methodist, this Baptist guy would do the same thing. Right. So I didn’t take it as an offense against the Catholic faith, but like, that’s not the thing you want to hear. Have you thought about converting where we’re Baptist? Our pastors. Nice. No, right. No. I’m not thinking about anything right now. Even relate it to that. Right. Um, but, but we have the same things in the Catholic faith. Have you thought about coming to my church? No, I haven’t. Thank you. Right. Our priest is very nice. He doesn’t molest children. Yeah. Well, I’ve told you the same thing about mine four years ago. So, you know, like that, that doesn’t work on me now. Right. I told you the same thing. Right.
Dr. Morse (38:24):
Um, and, and in a sense, if I could just say what these people are doing, we have the sense that the, that the institutional church tries to cover for itself and tries to preserve the good, the good name and the good appearance of the, of the church. And there are a bunch of reasons for that, but the lay people are doing that twist as well. So the lay people don’t want to think that, that their father figure or their, um, you know, their, their religious allegiance is, is being given over to something that’s not good. You know, no one wants to think that obviously, you know,
Alex Peyton (38:56):
No, I’ve, I have specifically ended relationships with people over the past few years who have accused me and my family. Uh, and this is my favorite, one of causing scandal and hurting the image of the church by filing suit and speaking out against it. And my response is always the same. What about the diocese causing scandal or maybe the priest molested my brother causing scandal. Do you not think the scandal had already quite, had already began before we started making noise? Um, and then I have cautionary messages too, about that. Hey, look, I know y’all guys are angry and that’s cool, but remember not their call scandal. What that, what does that mean? Right. Like we started it. No, I was dragged into this against my will.
Dr. Morse (39:52):
Right, right,
Alex Peyton (39:54):
Right. So yeah, those are, those are some, those are some, some common, common things we were taught and I, and some of them come from a place of Goodwill. Right.
Dr. Morse (40:03):
That’s right. Yeah. And in a way that makes it harder. That makes it harder because
Alex Peyton (40:08):
Yeah. And, and I’ve taken the approach that, that even if someone means, well, I’m going to try not to be angry than, but I’m going to respond harshly. Not in a way that’s, that’s overly malicious to them, but I’m going to respond harshly because I don’t want, I don’t want to just go, oh, okay, cool. Thanks. And then them do it to someone else because I don’t think they understand that a response like that back in the day would cause me to have to go to counseling. I simple responses, a sentence could cause me to have to leave work and go to counseling.
Dr. Morse (40:40):
So let’s talk about that because this is another point. People don’t understand that we want people to understand. Is that what happened to your brother was a traumatic experience for him? It only happened once the incident itself happened, took place once. But because of the betrayal of trust involved, it’s a much bigger thing than one incident. And he was traumatized and he needs to be treated therapeutically for trauma. And there’s a lot that goes into that. And I’m not a therapist, so I’m not going to pretend I know what I’m talking about, but you were also traumatized. Something happened to you that threatens your world. As you know, it, something happened to your little brothers and sisters that threatened their life. As they know it, I knew a little bit about trauma because of having two hurricanes and a major flood within one year. Okay. So your life is threatened, right? My life was threatened and it’s like, oh, all this kind of crazy stuff happens to your brain. You’re not thinking as clearly, you know, a of things go into that whole trauma thing. So tell people just a little bit about the way in which your brother’s trauma has traumatized you and then the retraumatization of the way people are handling the situation.
Alex Peyton (41:47):
Yeah. So I, through counseling, I didn’t want to go to counseling cause I’m a big, tough guy, but yeah, that was how I said, I’ll take care of it myself. But after, after what I now found out, I was like OCD. Um, after going through that compulsion where I zone out for like three, four hours in a day sitting down in the same spot, eventually I kept just having crying spells, um, about once a week and just cried just in the story, just cry and it’d go on for an hour or two hours. And, um, eventually I went to counseling and, um, what I found out was that I, I have a PTSD from the night of being told what happened. And so that made sense because from that, from basically that night on, um, and I still have a lot of it’s under control now. Um, but I had reoccurring night terrors, um, crying, spells panic attacks, um, fits of rage, where I had to break something. I had to break something. I, I I’d have this rage and I I’d break pencils and pins or just whatever was in front of me. And I had to do it like there’s had to break something. Um, and you never
Dr. Morse (43:03):
Had anything like that before you didn’t go
Alex Peyton (43:08):
And no, not at all. Um, uh, so the panic attacks crying spells, um, but then I was also in constant fight or flight, simple interactions with other humans became fighting. Um, I was rude to other people I’d go off on, I’d go off on people. Um, I was always scared someone was out to get me. Um, for a while. I slept with a, I slept with a gun on my nightstand only because I was scared that I was perpetually scared. So almost out to get me and I, I couldn’t sleep. And I do look out the windows, um, of my house, looking out the windows to see if there’s anyone there. I hear noises. Um, the night terrors were very real. Um, and I’d fantasize about murdering father Mike. Um, so very graphic, very graphic dreams that were on repeat of different ways. I kill him, torture him, whatever it may be.
Alex Peyton (44:06):
Um, also dreams where I was present at the abuse, but looking through the window. Oh, um, that was, that was a reoccurring one. Wow. Um, yeah, that was, that was a rough one. So I didn’t, it took a while. And even now I still have, I still have night terrors. Um, I’ll wake up in a sweat. Um, so I went through counseling for all of that. Um, and one of the, one of the biggest issues is I kind of, I got over the compulsion. Um, my counselor was very good with that. He attacked that first OCD and, and I would actually schedule and designate, um, obsession time. Oh,
Dr. Morse (44:49):
Okay. That was his suggestion for
Alex Peyton (44:52):
Suggestion. So I’d sit down for like 30 minutes and I time it and I would just obsess over everything for 30 minutes. And that was my obsession time. And I didn’t allow myself to obsess anytime out of that and doing that practice for a couple months, almost a year. I don’t have that anymore. I had to struggle with that. But if I do, I do a, I do an obsession thing where I just sit down and go, okay, for the next 15 minutes, I’m just gonna obsess. Um,
Dr. Morse (45:19):
I want to pause here just for a moment and remind the audience that you are a newlywed while all this was going on. Okay. And so you heard, I mean, this happened right before you got married and so therefore your, your new wife is also dealing with all of that and she loves Oliver herself. She has her relationship with Oliver too. So the ripple effects from the original trauma are going far beyond the original victim. Right. It goes, it goes all over the place. So anyway, continue.
Alex Peyton (45:53):
Yeah, absolutely. So the compulsion was a big thing to get over. Um, the only real thing left, that’s been a major strain on, on, on my life besides I still have the panic attacks. I had one recently actually. Um, but I still have, I still have the panic attacks where sex abuse will get brought up or, um, or I’ll run into a priest. I just don’t like, um, something like that. And, uh, you know, your chest tightens, you start, you start getting short of breath, you feel angry. I feel my, my head, like my temperature increase, blood pressure increase. Um, there’s that, and then there’s the, the ever since it has happened and it’s gradually gotten to the point where now it’s the most kind of prominent thing mentally. Um, but lack of empathy. Oh, wow. I have it very, it is very hard for me to empathize with anyone who isn’t in my family now.
Alex Peyton (46:52):
It’s, it’s almost like, uh, uh, uh, um, I don’t know an egoism that encompasses not just myself though, but my entire family. And so I have no empathy problems with my children, with my wife. Um, but I’ve, I’ve lost some friendships and relationships over the course of the past two or three years, just over the lack of my ability to be able to empathize with them. Um, and the, the closest answer I basically have gotten, um, through counseling was that so many emotions were, uh, were sent to me. So many emotions were, felt so strongly over the course of the last three years and the sense of having to fight almost like I’m in a war and defend my family. So my wife, my kids, my siblings, my mom and dad, um, that basically it’s like, my brain is shut off empathizing with anyone else. Right. My only one is just protecting. Um, so it’s led to a radical individualism on my part. And, and, and I’ve had to, I’ve shut myself off from many of my, many of my friends and relationships and I don’t form new relationships. Well, because I just don’t care. I have no interest, no interest in friends, no interest in anyone outside of my family. Yeah.
Dr. Morse (48:13):
Yes. Because it’s like, it’s like your, your psychic and relational energy is completely absorbed defending castle, Peyton whoever’s inside castle, Peyton. You’re, you’re there for them, but anybody else, you don’t have it
Alex Peyton (48:29):
It’s too much. It’s too much. I, it makes me, it makes me start to feel ill and then it triggers all my old stuff. Yeah. They tell me what they’re going through. I start to I’ll have a nightmare that night or go to counseling. I can’t be there for anything, anything dramatic. And my friends who have stayed close to know that, like they know I cannot, I cannot physically mentally speak to them if they were going through something traumatic, I can’t handle it. And so
Dr. Morse (49:00):
Part of a mark of them being your friend, uh, is that they can accept that. They understand that’s not the totality of Alex Peyton. It’s who Alex Peyton is right now. And, um, and they accept that in you.
Alex Peyton (49:15):
Yeah. And they know, and I’m very open with them about it. They know that I, I literally cannot help them. Yeah, I am. I’m. Yeah.
Dr. Morse (49:24):
Yeah. Well, Alex, you are pretty much an open book kind of guy. I can tell that and seriously, this interview, I think, I think this interview is going to be very helpful to a lot of people. Okay. And so, yeah, it’s just, it’s just you and me here, and I’m not traumatizing you, hopefully, you know, hopefully you won’t even nap after this. You know, I might need a nap, but hopefully people can, can see this and just see how serious this matter is, because in a way your family, I hate, I don’t want to sound wrong, but you’re relatively lucky in that. Oliver brought it out quickly. Okay. Three years is great. You know, I hate to say them, but in father, solans his research on this subject, he analyzed the Pennsylvania grand jury report. The average time was 28 years. Okay. So the fact that all of her brought it up early, the fact that your parents didn’t say, oh, priests would never do that. You know, because that’s another way that the kids in the past were getting traumatized. That, um, the fact that father good read for all of his craziness, he did in fact confess, you know, I mean, they have on record that he confessed. No, he’s a weasel ever since he’s tried to get out of the sentence and you know, what kind of stuff like that. But he, you know, he did confess, you
Alex Peyton (50:44):
Know,
Dr. Morse (50:47):
That’s something, you know, um, so it is agreements. It might seem, um, the fact that you and your family are willing to continue to be open about it. You, you are being a blessing to other people. You may not, you may not feel it, dude. You know, I know you’re not feeling it, But, but, but I think, I think this interview is going to be a blessing. I mean, I think for parents who are concerned that your kids may be in some kind of compromised situation, I want you to go back and review this part where Alex was talking about the grooming process. You really need to study that and think about it and take it serious.
Alex Peyton (51:24):
And Dr. Morris, if, if, if I can real quick, I know we’re approaching the end here. Um, can I, can I give one more, one more statement on the grooming? So when I worked for the archdiocese of new Orleans, I was a youth minister and of course I had a job as a youth minister for a diocese right after I got married and all of this happened, right? So I was very hyper focused on being safe and very hyper-focused on implementing safe environment. And so I’ll tell you that safe environment is very impractical when combined with what the church has typically done with youth programming. So you can either have safe environment or change your programming. And so when I was a youth minister, I used to have to go to counseling for myself after going to big youth events, use events like Abbey, youth Fest and world youth day, which is a local new Orleans one, not the big one, but world youth day.
Alex Peyton (52:41):
And I will tell you that go there as an outsider, go there as someone like me and I had went and had a conversation with the arch Bishop about the things I saw their priest, walking young priests, to walking with kids with their arms around them, sitting next to them with their arms around them, patting legs, grabbing them by the shirt to put them back into line, right, grabbing their arms, playing kid games, where there was lots of contact. And I remember speaking to the Archbishop and he took it very seriously, but the also mentioned, how will you know that that’s just normal contact and he’s right. It is normal contact, but when kids experience that contact, even through good priests, it’s immense in them. The idea that we have, which is that it’s okay for it to be done. Right. And so it was traumatic for me. And one of the reasons why I had to quit my job besides the fact that I wasn’t paid a lot, but whatever, but, and I was moving on. Right. But I could no longer sit there and act like it was okay to watch children be touched by priests, even in these innocent ways.
Dr. Morse (54:09):
And what you’re saying is that the, the normal affectionate touching outside the family, isn’t really normal. It doesn’t really belong there, but some of, some of those youth events are probably questionable in any case, because they’re overnight events with limited supervision and, you know, and, and mixed sex, you know? So if the girls and boys are going, even if the priest is cool, even if the adults are fine, maybe, maybe we’re setting up 10 patients that we shouldn’t be setting.
Alex Peyton (54:42):
And the point of that isn’t to try to cause fear. But I just want the audience who have kids who participate in that. If you really want to see you should volunteer, be a chaperone, go to one of those events and make sure you watch your kid. But secondly, go with the intention of watching the interaction between clergy and children and the in, in the end, the laity, how they react. And you will be quite surprised at how it is. And then you won’t be surprised at how easy it is to create a culture of grooming in the Catholic faith. And in the context of the youth events, it is so easy. The grooming is just right there. And it’s so simple. And parents are going to sit right across from the priest while the rooming happens.
Dr. Morse (55:30):
Wow. Well, you know what? This is the creepiest thing you’ve said the whole time. And that’s why
Alex Peyton (55:35):
I wanted to say, I’m glad,
Dr. Morse (55:38):
I’m glad you did. And actually the good priests don’t need to be touching kids. And they know they don’t need to be touched. No, I’ll be fine. The priests will be fine. They’ll recover.
Alex Peyton (55:48):
The other thing is, I couldn’t imagine a good priest going, darn touch a kid. I only do it the good way. What is this? No, that’s not.
Dr. Morse (56:01):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, Alex Peyton, this has been a real pleasure talking with you. I really appreciate your willingness to share this information with us. And I know, you know, I’m sure there’s going to be controversy. I’m sure people are going to quarrel with us about this, but, but that’s okay. That’s okay. I think the conversation needs to go forward. We need to be unafraid to have this type of conversation and to share this kind of information because of the fears killing us, the fear is killing us as much as anything. So, so listen up. Ruthie’s was this not great? Was this not great? Ruthie’s okay. So I want you to share this with anyone, you know, okay. Because the problem of childhood sex abuse is endemic across society is not a problem. It’s not just the Catholic problem, but we feel at the Ruth Institute, we feel it’s our church. It’s our problem. We’re going to deal with it. It’s not going to be fun, what we’re going to deal with it. And I don’t see anybody else deal with it. You know? So, um, Alex, I appreciate your contribution here that I just really think a lot of people are going to be blessed.
Intro Audio (57:08):
You can talk to [inaudible].