Born gay is a narrative that severely inhibits anyone dealing with same-sex attraction or gender dysphoria. Dr. Linda Seiler talks about both the qualitative research that she did regarding same sex attraction as well as the transformation she went through after she reoriented her life towards God.
Watch part 1 here: https://youtu.be/gqJ48N5uqYA
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Chapters
00:00 The Journey to Forgiveness and Healing
02:47 Pursuing Intimacy with Jesus
06:01 Facing Pain for Transformation
08:54 Understanding Temptation and Responsibility
12:14 The Cycle of Transformation
15:11 Exploring the Five Streams of LGBTQ Responses
18:09 Condemnation vs. Affirmation
20:59 Accommodation and Identity
23:53 Mortification and the Fall
27:14 Understanding Temptation and Sin
30:36 The Complexity of Concupiscence
33:25 Celibacy: A Gift or a Burden?
37:43 Holistic Transformation: Body, Soul, and Spirit
41:03 The Role of Prayer in Transformation
43:08 Identifying the Root of Desires
44:05 Advice for Parents of LGBTQ Individuals
46:20 The Importance of Language in Identity
50:23 Resources for Further Learning
Dr. Linda Seiler is a trailblazer in understanding gender identity and sexuality. Born and raised in a conservative environment, Linda faced internal conflicts regarding her gender identity from a young age. Despite these challenges, she pursued her education with determination, eventually earning a PhD from the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary. Her academic journey was marked by a deep exploration of gender and sexuality, culminating in a dissertation that examined the experiences of individuals who have undergone significant personal transformations. As an ordained minister, Linda has dedicated her life to ministry and education, leading initiatives like Chi Alpha at Purdue University and serving as a National XA Field Specialist. Her book, “Trans-Formation,” reflects her personal journey and academic insights, offering guidance to those navigating similar paths. Through her work, Linda continues to inspire and educate, contributing significantly to the discourse on identity and transformation.
Linda’s website:
Get the 5 streams document here: https://lindaseiler.com/resources/
Buy her book, “TRANSformation” https://www.amazon.com/dp/1625862601
Linda shares her story with Focus on the Family: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4WxPhWdU60
Follow her on social media:
https://www.facebook.com/RevLindaSeiler
https://www.instagram.com/revlindaseiler
https://twitter.com/revlindaseiler?lang=en
ReStory Ministries: https://restoryministries.org/
Transcript (Please note the transcript is auto-generated and contains errors)
00:00:00:00 – 00:00:26:12
Dr. Linda Seiler
Forgiveness. To that degree, I would remain in bondage to things I was I was giving a wide open door for the enemy to influence my thinking and my emotions and my relationships. And as I went into this healing process. One thing the Lord spoke to me was, if you will confess whatever I tell you to confess, forgive whomever I tell you to forgive and repent for whatever I ask you to repent from, you’ll be free.
00:00:26:14 – 00:00:43:21
Dr. Linda Seiler
The argued with the Lord. I was like, oh wait, whoa whoa whoa, I hate I get the confessing there’s all sorts of sexual sin and addictions and things I’ve been in my life. I’ve been involved. I gotta forget, confess and forgive. Absolutely. I’ve been wronged by people, and there’s all sorts of factors that have played into this. But I’m the victim here.
00:00:44:02 – 00:01:06:20
Dr. Linda Seiler
What? What do I need to repent for? Because I’m the one that was taken advantage of. I was the one that was abused or hurt or, you know, whatever. And, it’s like the Holy Spirit spoke to my heart and said, Linda, that may well be true, but even when you were hurt, you did not respond with the love of Christ, and you need to respond for your wrong responses.
00:01:06:22 – 00:01:28:08
Dr. Linda Seiler
And I then take responsibility for that. I spent a period of that 11 years in a victim mindset thinking, oh woe is me and self pity. I’m I’m the queen of self-pity parties. You can ask those. I didn’t walk you through the process. I did have pity party man. It’s off the charts. But I had to get out of that and take responsibility.
00:01:28:08 – 00:01:46:15
Dr. Linda Seiler
And that’s really when some of the breakthrough began to happen in my life, where I was able to recognize, I needed to, to take those wrong responses and run those through the cross and die to that and say, Jesus, you know, you didn’t you didn’t just die for the things I’ve done wrong. You you died even for the wrong that was done to me.
00:01:46:17 – 00:01:54:01
Dr. Linda Seiler
And there’s a place for the pain to go up and out of me and into the cross, and not to hold on to that any longer.
00:01:54:03 – 00:02:00:11
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Colossians. Yeah. We make up in our sufferings what’s lacking in the sufferings of Christ.
00:02:00:13 – 00:02:26:05
Dr. Linda Seiler
But to summarize, what I was looking for is what are the commonalities? What do we see among those who experienced this kind of transformation? And there are a number of mindsets that contribute to this change. And the first one is this this was the strongest one. They pursued intimacy with Jesus, not sexual orientation change. And that’s a real wall.
00:02:26:07 – 00:02:31:04
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Oh, I’ve heard that before, though. I’ve heard that from my other guests. Yeah, I yeah.
00:02:31:06 – 00:02:31:11
Dr. Linda Seiler
How.
00:02:31:11 – 00:02:39:14
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Motivated. I can’t do this, I can’t I can’t do this. I can’t believe it’s not going to happen, but at least I can follow Jesus right? That’s the kind of thing they’ll say. Yeah, yeah.
00:02:39:14 – 00:02:40:13
Dr. Linda Seiler
Yeah I, I when.
00:02:40:13 – 00:02:41:15
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
I continue continue.
00:02:41:17 – 00:03:03:01
Dr. Linda Seiler
How motivated were you to change? And they would just look at me and say I that was not even on the table that my it was never about changing. It wasn’t about becoming straight. It was about becoming whole. It was about knowing Jesus and and transformation came as a byproduct of knowing the Lord and fully surrendering to him.
00:03:03:03 – 00:03:20:12
Dr. Linda Seiler
If you make change, you’re the goal of your life. That becomes an idol. And I believe that some of what we’re seeing right now among the celibate gay Christians who say, hey, I didn’t experience the amount of change I was hoping for. So therefore change doesn’t happen and we begin to change our theology to match our subjective experience.
00:03:20:14 – 00:03:38:22
Dr. Linda Seiler
Rather than allowing the Word of God to be the dictator of no. This is what is possible through Jesus Christ. And this is my standard of truth, not my subjective experience. So that was the first and greatest thing. And then there was a surrender to Christ’s lordship in every area of life. They were not going to hold anything back.
00:03:39:00 – 00:04:02:23
Dr. Linda Seiler
They weren’t, nursing a secret porn addiction or illicit relationships or other things. They were willing to get everything in the light and surrender to Jesus. Third, they found their identity in Jesus Christ, not in their attractions. Some of these participants were out and proud, and they would march in gay pride parades and things like that. But when they came to know Jesus, they said, you know what?
00:04:02:23 – 00:04:22:22
Dr. Linda Seiler
This is not who I am anymore. They didn’t buy into the lie. What the enemy does is he takes what the Bible describes as an action men who have sex with men, women that have unnatural desires for other women. And it takes that action, that verb, and turns it into a noun. It is now an orientation that becomes your identity.
00:04:23:00 – 00:04:52:00
Dr. Linda Seiler
And they didn’t buy into that. They said that. Nope. May have been something I did with my body, may have been immoral actions, but this is not who I am. Forth. They believed that change remains possible, and it’s a part of just the normative discipleship process. As a Christian as it is any other area. We all break in different ways so God can change me in this area, just as much as you can change somebody from depression or alcoholism or selfishness or whatever it might be, the next one was understanding that change does not mean cure.
00:04:52:02 – 00:05:14:11
Dr. Linda Seiler
It doesn’t mean I’m never going to be tempted again, and temptation doesn’t mean, oh, somehow it’s failed and I haven’t changed. Temptation just means we live in a fallen world with a fallen flesh and an enemy who hates us. And, temptation doesn’t define us. We’re in trouble if temptation, you know, means you’re not. If a temptation is sin, you know, even Jesus was tempted.
00:05:14:11 – 00:05:36:09
Dr. Linda Seiler
Such as we are so seeing temptation rightly through Scripture and not saying that’s your identity. The next one was they were willing, this was the biggest one. They were willing to face the pain in the presence of Jesus. As I was interviewing people, nobody heard each other’s interviews and everybody started repeating the same three words over and over.
00:05:36:09 – 00:06:03:10
Dr. Linda Seiler
And I started getting freaked out, like, what is somebody, you know, usurping my data here or talking to my participants because everybody kept saying, face the pain. Face the pain. Literally the same three words over and over again. And that’s when I felt like I am swimming in a pool of revelation that the ones who get free and walk in transformation are willing to face the pain that is behind those desires.
00:06:03:12 – 00:06:36:08
Dr. Linda Seiler
Sexual addictions, same sex attractions, transgender desires, even heterosexual pornography addictions. Sexual issues are really never about sex. It’s about a more relational issues in the soul that are not being met in legitimate ways, legitimate desires that we’re trying to meet in illegitimate ways, and we self-medicate through pornography, illicit relationships and so forth. And if you’re not willing to face the pain behind that and you choose to self-medicate, you are essentially putting handcuffs on the Holy Spirit and saying, hey, I got this area.
00:06:36:08 – 00:06:46:11
Dr. Linda Seiler
You can’t touch this. I will medicate here. Rather than receiving the comfort that God has to give us through the Holy Spirit and through his love and through the body of Christ.
00:06:46:13 – 00:07:07:13
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And so, so that that you answer. I know a lot of questions here, but you just tacitly answered one of them, which is that at this part of your research, this was true qualitative research in that you gave them open ended questions, then you gave you open ended answers. And so it’s not like you gave them a multiple choice or something that meant this.
00:07:07:16 – 00:07:27:23
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
This just came roaring out of them. The same, the same set of things same. And in this particular case, that same three words. Yeah. And and I heard you say that to Andrew Rodriguez and that blew me when I heard that. It blew me away because, because part of that is they have surrendered self pity and that that’s how they’ve surrendered self pity.
00:07:27:23 – 00:07:44:15
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
That’s how they’ve surrendered blame. That’s how they’re able to forgive this, that they’ve they’ve gone in and they’ve really faced that and allowed it and allowed it to be healed. So this is a really important paradigm. I think that what you of what you brought up, the other thing is I want to go back to this question of temptation.
00:07:45:03 – 00:08:19:16
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And that may lead us into our five streams, in a minute, because the way people handle temptation is an important thing. In the Catholic tradition, we have this idea that, that you’re not responsible for temptation, you’re responsible for what you do with it. In Saint John Paul the Second, our late, great pope, Saint John Paul, and as part of the theology of the body and part of his work as philosopher, he came up with this distinction between something happens in man on the one hand and men acts.
00:08:19:18 – 00:08:40:05
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
So feeling can come unbidden into the mind or through the body, or you can be a rush of adrenaline or all these things, and that has not the same moral significance as an action that’s not a moral action. One priest put it to me this way. He said, you know, if, if, if a feeling comes knocking on the door, you’re not responsible for that.
00:08:40:08 – 00:09:03:17
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
But if you invited him for coffee now, now you’re you don’t have to have it in front of. Okay. And so and I think that distinction, is helpful to a lot of people. And I feel like some of our frozen chosen friends and maybe others, I can’t keep all the players free. But some of the, some of the other forms of Christianity don’t have that view.
00:09:03:17 – 00:09:30:14
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Like if you had the temptation, it’s evidence that you’re, Yeah. What is it that everybody’s everybody’s condemn that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God? So like it? It is like a total gravity, this word of looking for it. Yeah. It’s evidence of that. It’s like that’s not very helpful, you know, I mean yeah, but no, it would be my, my instinct.
00:09:30:16 – 00:09:50:23
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
I’m not a theologian, but as you know, just sort of a normal Catholic church, maybe my instinct is like, yeah, but no to that. So is there more you want to tell us about your about your study? Yes. You can tell us more because I would like to I want to go I want to go and talk about these five stories, particularly about the temptation question.
00:09:51:02 – 00:09:56:04
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
But I also don’t want to miss whatever else you want to tell us about your 30 people.
00:09:56:06 – 00:10:01:09
Dr. Linda Seiler
Yeah. I think the temptation question.
00:10:01:11 – 00:10:02:04
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:10:02:06 – 00:10:25:06
Dr. Linda Seiler
Yeah. I think we’ve covered enough of the research. That would be helpful. The final thing that I conclude this in my book was, a cycle of transformation that I noticed in people’s lives, which was there seems to be an A again, it’s not a linear thing where you start from point A, you go to point B and you’re done.
00:10:25:08 – 00:10:49:13
Dr. Linda Seiler
Transformation is at work. In all of our lives. We’re continually transformed and conformed to the image of Christ. So what I saw was they recognize that these desires I have for the same sex are disordered desires, deceitful desires. Ephesians 422 talks about them being deceitful desires, and then they’re willing to submit to those desires in the context. Submit those to the Lordship of Christ in the context of community.
00:10:49:15 – 00:11:13:19
Dr. Linda Seiler
And then third, cultivate that intimacy with Jesus and through intimacy with him, he begins to bring up areas that need healing. Are you willing to face the pain and experience healing of the soul? Some people call it inner healing or emotional healing, but just those areas in our lives where God can replace lies with truth and then remain open to continued growth and healing.
00:11:13:20 – 00:11:34:02
Dr. Linda Seiler
Right? And as we’re open to that, God will continue to reveal areas of disordered desires in the cycle begins again. And these principles apply not just to sexuality. I mean any area of our lives where we struggle and have emotional pain and brokenness. Jesus can bring healing as we’re continuing to that. That’s one that’s a community.
00:11:34:03 – 00:11:54:11
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
The other thing I wanted to go back to, though, was the the comment that you made about all the sexual issues having, at root, some kind of relational brokenness that has to be addressed, that put me into mind of our friends at Desert Stream, Living Waters and Eddie Kaminsky, Marco Casanova, that is a program that is very tested, y’all.
00:11:54:11 – 00:12:18:18
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
He’s been doing that since 1980. Okay, so this is another not flash in the pan kind of guy. You know, and what he’s discovered over the years is that they’re the the principles that help a person address unwanted same sex attraction, also help with pornography addiction, also help with relational brokenness. You know, also help with sex addiction, you know, and all and all of those kind of things.
00:12:18:18 – 00:12:46:10
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
So I think what I, what I find interesting about it is how different this is from the sexual orientation paradigm that we’ve all been, you know, sort of, pulled into submission. Basically. It’s never it’s not like it’s been proven. In fact, you know, we now know sexual orientation is not even a thing, much less an important thing, you know, and, but, you know, we’re all we’ve all been, you know, sort of hit with it a million times.
00:12:46:10 – 00:13:03:10
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And so this is how we think. But I just want to present to everybody the idea here that Linda is putting forward a very different way of understanding what these feelings are about. The first place, and that they had to do with some kind of relational brokenness. And if you can address that, you’re going to be happier overall.
00:13:03:17 – 00:13:24:05
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
It’s not just that your desires, your pattern of desires are going to change. Something like that. That’s even secondary. You’re going to you’re just going to feel better. And, and Father Sullins has uncovered that in some of the research that he’s done you I know you’re familiar with his statistical analyzes and stuff, that even the guys who don’t change their sexual orientation, they feel better after the therapy.
00:13:24:05 – 00:13:56:08
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
You know, they have less depression and stuff like that. So, so it’s just you’re standing things on their head, and that’s a good thing that you’re, you know, kind of taking apart some of these, misconceptions that have had billions of dollars to promote, I mean, literally billions of dollars have been used to create this idea in our minds of of what are what are what our bodies mean, what our sexuality means, what our patterns of attraction.
00:13:56:10 – 00:14:19:08
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Somebody else is doing that to us and that there’s other we have other ways of thinking about it, other choices about how to think about it. Right. So so great research. What what’s the your publication of that, of your dissertation 20, 2020 okay, okay. Very well. And I do want to have a link to it. We’ll link to it in the show notes so that people can go look at it and stuff like that.
00:14:19:15 – 00:14:40:06
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
So let’s now talk about the five streams if you don’t like this idea was introduced to me on the show when I interviewed Darren Mill, I think was or Der Mill. You know, Darren, my friend Hudson Biblio tried to explain it to me one time. I didn’t quite get it. Would you walk us through what this is all about, and how these different streams or approaches differ from each other?
00:14:40:06 – 00:14:41:08
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Now.
00:14:41:10 – 00:15:13:07
Dr. Linda Seiler
There are various responses to LGBTQ among those who call themselves Christians, and their some categorize it into four categories. They’re called lanes. Portland Fellowship put out a document several years ago called differing views, and they had four lanes, so to speak. I developed this as a part of my dissertation research and came up with five. Instead of calling them lanes, I call them streams because just like in nature, streams can kind of divert.
00:15:13:07 – 00:15:39:19
Dr. Linda Seiler
There’s not necessarily a strong boundary. And they can according to different, you know, whether there’s rain or a drought or whatever, the streams can merge with others and diverge and so forth. And what we’re finding is, say, 40 years ago, there was a very clear difference between either those that were Christians and said, hey, we believe God’s word is true, and his design for sexuality is a man and a woman in marriage.
00:15:39:21 – 00:16:13:01
Dr. Linda Seiler
And then the those who were pro-gay and trying to promote the idea that you could, you could be gay and an act out. And somehow God was okay with that. And it was just very clear distinction, two different views. And with the downfall of Exodus and other aspects of culture becoming more normalized, LGBTQ becoming more normalized, we’re starting to see a fraction, a fracturing in the body of Christ and these differing views competing with each other and some of them sound legit, and we don’t realize how much we are being impacted by culture, more so than the Word of God.
00:16:13:03 – 00:16:31:19
Dr. Linda Seiler
And then we end up in a place we never intended with what we call syncretism, where we’re trying to synchronize fallen culture with the Word of God, the Kingdom of God. So the five streams I named to them with names that describe what they are, as opposed to side A, B, x, y. I could never remember which letter goes with which.
00:16:31:21 – 00:16:35:06
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
I know, I know what drove me crazy.
00:16:35:08 – 00:16:59:11
Dr. Linda Seiler
So I added, a stream that didn’t seem to be covered with the other sides that people mentioned. And that stream is condemnation, because you have the typical Westboro Baptist Church, people out there that are a caricature and a mischaracterization of Christianity, where they are holding those wicked picket signs and saying, God hates fags and fags, go to hell.
00:16:59:11 – 00:17:19:23
Dr. Linda Seiler
And like, negative, negative, pardon my language, but that’s just their their website literally is God Hates fags.com. That’s their website. And it gives this name to Christians, this, this reputation that that’s who we are. When I’m on a university campus, they assume when I say I follow Jesus and his design for sexuality, they say, oh, you’re Westboro Baptist Church.
00:17:19:23 – 00:17:48:11
Dr. Linda Seiler
No, no, no, no, no, right. And I’ll say, right, I’m sorry for how Jesus in the gospel has been this, but represented to you. That is not truth. It gets a lot of clickbait because it’s it’s showy and it creates this stereotype of Christians that is not at all accurate. And these people, call themselves Christians, but they they take the Bible out of context and they say God hates people who identify as LGBTQ so much that they deserve the death penalty.
00:17:48:11 – 00:18:09:16
Dr. Linda Seiler
And they try to apply Leviticus 18 and 20 that talks about the death penalty under the law. And they literally believe, people who identify as LGBTQ should be executed, shot and killed. I mean, just it’s it’s disgusting. But I link to it in my book and in the five streams that there are, I, I couldn’t believe there are still people out there who who adhere to this, but there are.
00:18:09:18 – 00:18:36:01
Dr. Linda Seiler
So that’s the condemnation stream. The affirmation stream is the direct opposite of that affirming gay, quote unquote, marriage partnerships and saying, God’s okay with that. Some people call them revisionists because they try to revise the scriptures, ones like Matthew Vine, who wrote God and the Gay Christian to justify that you can follow Jesus, believe in the Bible, but act out homosexuals.
00:18:36:02 – 00:18:56:11
Dr. Linda Seiler
And essentially what we need to do is update the scriptures to he compares it. Matthew binds to a Copernican revolution. We used to think that the sun rotated around the Earth, but now we know the Earth rotates around the sun because we’ve discovered scientifically. So he says, you know, we didn’t know. The apostle Paul didn’t know about sexual orientation, but now we know 2000 years later.
00:18:56:11 – 00:19:26:11
Dr. Linda Seiler
So we need to update the scriptures. And it’s as if he’s implicitly accusing the Holy Spirit of being ignorant when he was inspiring the scriptures 2000 years ago. And so we know enough that if you look at scriptures, it doesn’t take a PhD to read the Bible and go, wow, God’s a design from Genesis all the way through to revelation is one man with one woman in a lifelong marriage covenant, and that every earthly marriage is just a foreshadowing of the ultimate marriage to come between Christ and His bride, the church.
00:19:26:11 – 00:19:46:14
Dr. Linda Seiler
It’s just that’s God’s design for marriage. And it and it images the gospel. So that’s affirmation. And they they subscribe to the idea that you are born gay or born transgender and cannot change, and that there isn’t any science to back that up. And yet that’s what they believe. So that’s affirmation.
00:19:46:15 – 00:19:57:04
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yeah. Our father, James Martin, would fit into this category. Oh, we have this priest who is very notorious in Catholic circles. And then he would fit into exactly this category, I think.
00:19:57:05 – 00:20:28:09
Dr. Linda Seiler
Okay. Yeah. And that side is known as side A, a for affirmation. So this side B, which I call accommodation, is Christians who they don’t they know enough that we don’t want to be Westboro Baptist Church and, you know, mischaracterize Jesus and condemn people for experiencing these desires. And they don’t want to overcorrect and affirm and say, you can act out on attractions of the same sex and have a gay partner.
00:20:28:11 – 00:20:51:18
Dr. Linda Seiler
So they try to find the middle of the line road. Let’s let’s be compassionate. Let’s love people. Even though we are going to stay true to the scriptures and be Orthodox. As far as homosexual, homo, erratic behavior, and acting out would be immoral. And so they adopt a gay identity and say, I’m a Christian, but I’m a gay Christian.
00:20:51:20 – 00:21:13:08
Dr. Linda Seiler
And yet it would be immoral to act on these desires. So I am a celibate, gay Christian, and they adopt ideas such as, a mixed orientation marriage. Maybe a man is married to a woman, but he still experiences attractions to the same sex. So he’s quote unquote homosexual in his orientation or bisexual, and then she is straight or heterosexual again.
00:21:13:08 – 00:21:38:08
Dr. Linda Seiler
I don’t like these. These are terms we made up, right? Justify morality. But yeah, they they adopt a lot of kind of critical theory language saying, when you have straight privilege and heteronormativity and, and so forth. And so essentially what they’re doing is they’re synchronizing fallen culture with kingdom values and trying to walk that line of, we need to be compassionate to those who struggle.
00:21:38:08 – 00:21:55:04
Dr. Linda Seiler
And I commend them for that mindset. Absolutely. We don’t want to be Westboro Baptist Church. And part of the reason I was afraid to tell anybody in the body of Christ about my struggles was the fear that I would be condemned. And so, of course, we need to demonstrate compassion, but we also need to align with what Scripture says.
00:21:55:06 – 00:22:21:07
Dr. Linda Seiler
To adopt a gay identity is contrary to the scriptures, to the gospel, because to say that what I, the actions I do with my body are now an orientation and an identity that determines a dictates my identity and determines my destiny. Is is not scriptural. I wouldn’t say there’s an orientation if I struggled in another area like selfishness, which Christian doesn’t every day have to die to selfishness.
00:22:21:09 – 00:22:37:16
Dr. Linda Seiler
And yet I don’t identify and say I’m a selfish Christian. No, that’s not who I am in Christ. Ephesians 422 to 24 I put off the old self which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires. I made new in the attitude of my mind so I can put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
00:22:37:18 – 00:23:02:20
Dr. Linda Seiler
And so to adopt a gay identity is contrary to the gospel. I die to the old stuff. I don’t embrace it and label myself by it. And they fixate on the desires and whether or not the desires change, so forth. And this is their identity, and they don’t believe in transformation. Therefore, they adopt things like spiritual friendships because you’re if you’re a celibate gay Christian, you’re never going to marry and you’re going to be lonely.
00:23:02:20 – 00:23:26:17
Dr. Linda Seiler
So we have to make up for that and endorse these spiritual friendships between many times, between people of the same sex that make a commitment, a covenant with each other and it’s a way to appease their loneliness. But it’s essentially a gay marriage without the sex really is what it is. And so it’s all a ways of, not acknowledging the roots behind the fruit.
00:23:26:19 – 00:23:51:11
Dr. Linda Seiler
And so they adopt that identity and discount any developmental issues or gender nonconformity, adverse family dynamics, childhood sexual abuse. It they just they discount it completely. And again Mark your house is in this group now has spoken at the voice conference and affiliates interviewed by Preston sprinkle and those who are the foremost proponents of the accommodation approach.
00:23:51:13 – 00:23:56:04
Dr. Linda Seiler
And so they discount any developmental issues and transformation.
00:23:56:16 – 00:24:00:23
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And so the key one of the key issues is that they believe people are born gay.
00:24:01:00 – 00:24:23:02
Dr. Linda Seiler
Exactly. They look at it not as a genetic issue. Affirmation would say it’s like biological, almost like a genetic thing. Accommodation mindset says, okay, we know enough because these are seminary educated millennials who are leading this movement. They know enough that there’s not research out there that you’re born gay, can’t change, as far as genetically. So they look at it as a disability market.
00:24:23:02 – 00:24:45:12
Dr. Linda Seiler
Our house came up with the disability framework. So in the same sense that somebody might be dyslexic or have some other kind of disability, well, this is almost like a disability in your attractions. It’s, you know, something’s kind of off there, but it’s, you know, it happens because we live in a fallen world. And if you don’t believe that God can transform or heal, then you don’t believe that this disability could ever change.
00:24:45:14 – 00:24:55:05
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
So where does the I don’t I don’t see what the disability model buys you over to beyond the born gay model. Because where does the disability come from?
00:24:55:07 – 00:25:15:11
Dr. Linda Seiler
It’s a it’s a exactly it. Well, it’s a crafty way of saying this disability exists because we live in a fallen world. And so some people are going to be born with this disability. And I’m really sorry that this is your particular disability, and you’re not going to be able to overcome it in this world. Unless there’s some, you know, huge supernatural miracle.
00:25:15:16 – 00:25:23:04
Dr. Linda Seiler
But you’re this is going to be what you struggle with. This is the cross you need to bear until the day that you die.
00:25:23:06 – 00:25:25:23
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Are these people secessionists?
00:25:26:01 – 00:25:47:10
Dr. Linda Seiler
Many? Yes, I’ve encountered many. Some are not. David Bennett, appears to be a charismatic type Christian. He’s, he, is in that category. But predominantly when you go to the conferences, you read their books, you listen to what they’re saying. There is not an emphasis on the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the power of God to transform.
00:25:47:10 – 00:26:13:21
Dr. Linda Seiler
Instead, there is almost this, among reformed secessionists. They adhere to Calvinism many times and total depravity, as you were talking about in this idea that God in the sovereignty of God, you are predestined for this in a sense, and so in the sovereignty of one of their speakers at one of their conferences said, God knew I would struggle with this particular disability, and this is just who I am, and the sovereignty of God in it cannot change.
00:26:13:23 – 00:26:21:19
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Oh dear. I see the problem. Okay, let’s go on to the next one.
00:26:21:21 – 00:26:47:16
Dr. Linda Seiler
The next one. So that was I’d be the next one is called side Y, which I call mortification. And this has a strong component among those that come from reformed, secessionist backgrounds. Again, those that might adhere to Calvinist, theology. And they look at it through the lens primarily of the fall, that we experienced same sex attractions because we live in a fallen world.
00:26:47:16 – 00:27:17:07
Dr. Linda Seiler
It’s part of the sin nature. And so the only remedy, if it’s entirely a spiritual issue, then there’s only a spiritual solution of repentance and the gospel. Now there’s truth in that. It is a part of the fall. We experience these things because we live in a fallen world. However, they discount developmental influences that may have contributed to those attractions and therefore they discount, inner healing and counseling and things like that.
00:27:17:07 – 00:27:41:13
Dr. Linda Seiler
That could be a part of the restoration and transformation process. And that gets into the realm of temptation, where there is a huge, controversy going on right now. And you alluded to this before, it’s the term in reform. The theology is called concupiscence, believing that the very experience of attractions to the same sex is in and of itself a sin.
00:27:41:15 – 00:28:01:06
Dr. Linda Seiler
And that’s problematic. I write about this in my book If Temptation is a sin, we are in trouble because Jesus was tempted, such as we are, yet was without sin. And James chapter one talks about, yeah, we can experience temptation, but it doesn’t become sin unless we allow it to conceive. And that route to go down and we think on it and entertain that.
00:28:01:06 – 00:28:21:12
Dr. Linda Seiler
As you said, we invited in for tea or coffee. And we allow that to brew and fester and conceive, and it gives birth to sin, which then ultimately gives birth to death. But to experience a temptation doesn’t mean anything except that I live in a fallen world. There’s a tempter, and I have a fallen flesh and symptoms, susceptibilities and vulnerabilities.
00:28:21:14 – 00:28:40:00
Dr. Linda Seiler
And in my research I discovered three responses to temptation one. It can just be a blatant attack of the enemy to try to pull you back into your old life and who you used to be, who doesn’t want to, when they’re under stress, return to an old refuge and find comfort, right? Secondly, it can be the the discernment of spirits and operation.
00:28:40:05 – 00:28:59:14
Dr. Linda Seiler
I have had this happen where I’m not attracted to women anymore. That’s just not part of who I am, thank God. But I have been counseling people and all of a sudden I’ll I’ll feel that wave of what I used to feel and go, oh my goodness, what is going on? What what is happening here? And the Lord showed me what you are sensing is the spirit on them that is lusting toward you.
00:28:59:16 – 00:29:16:18
Dr. Linda Seiler
And it’s it’s not coming from you, it’s coming from them. Discern. And in that moment. So the first time that happened, the Lord said, do not be alone with this person, and you need to be aware of what’s going on. And that person didn’t tell me they struggled with these desires. Anything I found out a couple of years later that that’s what was going on when they told me.
00:29:16:18 – 00:29:39:20
Dr. Linda Seiler
But I already knew because the Holy Spirit was showing me. And then the third thing with temptation is it can be a breadcrumb trail leading us back to the root of the fruit we’re experiencing. Or in another way of saying it, it’s the it’s the check engine light in the car. If the check engine light goes on in your car, first of all, you have that sinking feeling of like, oh no, why is this light on?
00:29:39:22 – 00:29:56:19
Dr. Linda Seiler
And then the second thought is, what do I do to get this light to turn off? And a mortification approach says, all right, I’ve got this bad fruit in my life, and it’s a spiritual issue, and we just need to get that light to turn off. Maybe I’ll pull the fuze and just get the. The focus is on getting the light to turn off.
00:29:56:21 – 00:30:14:10
Dr. Linda Seiler
Turn off the light. So mortify sin, kill it, die to it, take the thoughts captive. Repent. Don’t think about it, don’t act on it and repent, repent, repent, repent, repent. Kind of almost. Some people call it a white knuckle approach where you just like, stop the bleeding. Just stop it, stop it, stop it, stop I tried stop it for years.
00:30:14:12 – 00:30:32:22
Dr. Linda Seiler
I was able to stop for a period of time. But when you don’t get to the root, you will continue eventually to experience the fruit. Even in in nature when you cut down weeds, but you don’t pull the root out, the weed will grow back. Same thing is true in this area, but if you focus on not just turning the light off, but say why?
00:30:32:23 – 00:30:55:15
Dr. Linda Seiler
Why is the check engine light on? Maybe I need to look under the hood and figure out what’s going on in the engine, and that’s what the mortification approach does not consider. If it’s if there aren’t developmental issues, if there isn’t gender nonconformity, childhood sexual abuse, adverse family dynamics, a variety of if there’s a reason, then there’s a resolution.
00:30:55:15 – 00:31:06:03
Dr. Linda Seiler
That’s the good news. But they don’t consider there could be any other reason except it’s the fall and you need to repent. And so it’s almost a kind of a one dimensional look at it.
00:31:06:05 – 00:31:11:00
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And so is this more do these people tend to be Calvinists?
00:31:11:02 – 00:31:26:14
Dr. Linda Seiler
Yes. I have friends that approach. Rosaria Butterfield, good friend of mine. She’s a huge proponent of concupiscence, and that the very experience of same sex attraction, you have to repent for even feeling that desire. And she united.
00:31:26:14 – 00:31:47:21
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Okay, I got say some. I gotta say something about the word concupiscence, because we use that in Catholic theology, too, and it doesn’t mean that it means something different. So just for everybody to be clear, what you know, when when you hear a Catholic talk about concupiscence, what that means is it’s the result. It’s the long term result of the fall, is that we have a tendency toward sin.
00:31:47:23 – 00:32:08:05
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
It isn’t a sin, it’s just the tendency toward, since the it’s the word that’s used to describe the tendencies, it’s it things like that. And the way that the, the original sin, even though original sin is removed from your soul in baptism, this is Catholic theology. The sin itself is God, but the effects of sin are still there.
00:32:08:10 – 00:32:29:04
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Among the sin under the general label of concupiscence would be fallen into it. A weakened will, a faulty memory. Those are parts of the effect of the fall. They are not themselves sins. When you experience what you got to be on the lookout for them, you know that they’ll be the way that a Catholic would put it.
00:32:29:07 – 00:32:47:05
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
You know? Okay, here it comes again. You know this. And it’s a it’s a it’s a more what I want to say. It’s a little bit more detail about what a temptation is, right, about how you’re being lured away from the good, about how you’re being, you know, what’s between you and the good. Well, my intellect is a mess, right?
00:32:47:05 – 00:33:08:21
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Because I can’t see clearly what is going on. So it’s the effect of original sin, and it’s also the result of your actual sins that you commit. Because, you know, if you think about those things I just mentioned, when you do sinful acts, you’re usually stupid, you know, I mean, makes you stupid. And that’s a that’s a kind of a funny old to a mystic saying, sin makes you stupid.
00:33:08:21 – 00:33:31:12
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
You know, we just kind of joke around about that. That’s a paraphrase of Saint Thomas Aquinas, but it’s but is correct. You know that sin makes you stupid. So I wanted to just clarify that, that and the other thing is this term white knuckle chastity. Now, I’ll tell you what’s interesting to me about that, because of course, everybody has may have to deal with that, you know, young people when they’re home, right.
00:33:31:12 – 00:33:55:05
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Start going and you don’t know what you’re supposed to do. And I think, of course, in the Catholic tradition, we have a a tradition of consecrated virginity, whether it’s women becoming sisters who consecrate their virginity to Christ. And this is right out of the Bible, y’all. This is right in the Bible. Saint Paul talks about it. Jesus talks about Matthew 19, and our clergy is celibate.
00:33:55:07 – 00:34:24:18
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And if you talk with seminary directors, they’re on the lookout for white knuckle chastity. Right. So if a guy is like is like this, it’s if it’s a conscience struggle, they know there’s something that has to be addressed. You know, because that’s not a stable situation. You know what I mean. And so I think that, that this, this is kind of, I hate to say this, but I think it’s the celibacy is a beautiful charism.
00:34:24:18 – 00:34:48:04
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
We consider the carriers of a specific call from God for some people. And this is kind of a downgrade of it. Right? It’s not it’s not seeing that celibacy can be a gift and celibacy is oh, well, this is what I’m stuck with because I have a disability. Or I might be I might be, conflating these two, but but you see what I mean?
00:34:48:04 – 00:35:06:17
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
It’s it’s not a gift. It’s it’s second best. It’s like the runner up prize or something like that, you know, and a man who has a true heroism of celibacy. It’s not that. You know, I mean I’ve just I’ve known men who are like that. I’ve known women who were like that in their, in their religious life.
00:35:06:21 – 00:35:34:04
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
It’s not second best, you know. So that bugs me about this because they’re using. Yeah. I don’t know that we have this exactly in this form on the Catholic side. We definitely have affirmation guys. You know, but this this way of talking about celibacy, I don’t think I see that as much. But anyway, I just wanted to say that because we’ve got people across the religious spectrum watching this and I want to be sure that.
00:35:34:06 – 00:35:55:20
Dr. Linda Seiler
One of my contentions, no, I don’t come from a Catholic background. One of my contentions with the, accommodation side be proponents who call themselves celibate gay Christians. My understanding is celibacy. If if I were a priest, I’m saying no to a legitimate marriage to another woman, which God endorses, and saying no. I am choosing to be celibate, to serve in the priesthood.
00:35:55:22 – 00:36:13:10
Dr. Linda Seiler
And so you’re saying you’re saying no to something legitimate in order to say yes to the call of God, whereas celibate Christians, what are they saying? No to sex with a somebody of the same sex in order to deny themselves to God? Well, that’s just called discipleship. I mean, that’s not celibate, right? That’s every Christian has to say no to health.
00:36:13:12 – 00:36:18:07
Dr. Linda Seiler
So I if I were Catholic, I would take offense to them using celibacy in that way because I don’t think that’s legit.
00:36:18:08 – 00:36:42:08
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yeah, yeah. And do you know what that was part of when, Pope Benedict, when he was, Cardinal Ratzinger, they issued a statement about, you know, a man with deep seeded homosexual inclinations should not be admitted to the priesthood. This was part of the rationale, you know, you’re surrendering something of value, for the sake of something better.
00:36:42:16 – 00:37:06:07
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And you’re going to be a spiritual father. But if you are, if you have a strong homosexual orientation, then you aren’t surrendering and you aren’t giving up anything. You know, like you said, it’s just plain vanilla discipleship. You shouldn’t just you shouldn’t be doing it at all. And and you’re not really you’re as long as you are in that mindset, I forget I forget the exact language that Benedict uses there.
00:37:06:11 – 00:37:34:11
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
But but but it’s it’s more along the lines of you’re not really a proper father. You know, you’re not oriented towards fatherhood in the in the deepest way that you should be. And and in my opinion, Joseph Ratzinger was a beautiful father. I mean, on many levels. That man was a great father. And but but but he had the the honest to goodness charism, you know, of celibacy that he was sacrificing that, for the, for the sake of the kingdom.
00:37:34:11 – 00:37:40:06
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
So, so that’s kind of interesting that you came to kind of a similar conclusion to transformation.
00:37:40:06 – 00:38:01:20
Dr. Linda Seiler
Looks at it from a holistic point of view, that God created us as body, soul, and spirit, and that all three of those things are a part of the solution, part of the the cause and the solution. So is it a spiritual issue that it’s a part of the fall, and we experience fallenness in our own flesh and vulnerabilities and other people sinning against us?
00:38:01:22 – 00:38:29:12
Dr. Linda Seiler
Absolutely. So there must be repentance and there must be a being, you know, renewed in our mind and so forth and in our heart. And then there is the body involved, certainly, because we know and I write about this in my my chapter on science, that the brain and our sexual drives and desires are inextricably linked. And scripturally we and the more we learn about science, we know you have neural.
00:38:29:13 – 00:38:49:18
Dr. Linda Seiler
You said cynics are stupid. Well, we know we we actually build new neural pathways. When we you get addicted to pornography, you are building pads in your brain toward that, that make it easier to go in that direction. You have hormones, vasopressin in men, oxytocin in women that are really reinforcing that. So if you stop that behavior, you will experience withdrawals.
00:38:49:18 – 00:39:21:13
Dr. Linda Seiler
And there are natural things you have to fight against. So we know that as you renew your mind, Scripture says, don’t be conformed to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that as we renew our thoughts, what you think on in your brain will actually affect your drives and your desires. I’m an avid golfer, and if I start thinking too long about being out in warm weather on a green golf course and, you know, playing, I’m going to want to get out there and go do that because my mind is affecting my my body and my my physical drives and desires.
00:39:21:13 – 00:39:23:12
Dr. Linda Seiler
Our sexuality is no different.
00:39:23:14 – 00:39:24:04
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:39:24:06 – 00:39:47:01
Dr. Linda Seiler
We talk about like a gal that may have been abused as a child and she she could be five, six years old and say in her mind, men are not safe. I will never be vulnerable with a man. For her is not even a sexual issue. She doesn’t have those hormones as A56 year old, but something in her soul, in her mind, it becomes that wound and that root of rejection and pain becomes lodged in her soul.
00:39:47:01 – 00:40:10:11
Dr. Linda Seiler
And that doesn’t go away just because she hits puberty and her hormones kick in. And so why would she think it’s safe to be sexually vulnerable with a man if, as a five year old, she already made an inner vow in her mind, this is not safe. And then the only alternative is women, right? So things that happened to us in our past can affect our present reality and even our sexual drives and desires because of the wounds in the soul.
00:40:10:13 – 00:40:32:15
Dr. Linda Seiler
So the transformation perspective addresses body, soul and spirit. What’s going on in our lives? Yes. Let’s address the spiritual part of it repent and stop acting out and so forth. But let’s also address wounds in the soul that may be contributing to gender insecurity, to attractions, to the same sex, and so forth.
00:40:32:17 – 00:40:48:18
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yeah, of all the ones that you’ve mentioned, this is the only one that is explicitly non dualistic. You know, you talk about mind body dualism. This one seems to me to be the most integrated that it has. The body in the soul most integrated. That’s that that’s very interesting.
00:40:48:18 – 00:40:49:22
Dr. Linda Seiler
It’s holistic in a line.
00:40:49:23 – 00:40:50:06
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Okay.
00:40:50:06 – 00:41:11:10
Dr. Linda Seiler
Well it’s holistic in alignment with first Thessalonians 523. May God Himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul, and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Transformation in Jesus, no matter what area we’re in. It’s a holistic form. It’s not just praying a prayer to go to heaven when we die.
00:41:11:10 – 00:41:18:19
Dr. Linda Seiler
It’s not just being religious outwardly, it’s the heart and the mind being renewed and transformed from the inside out.
00:41:18:21 – 00:41:43:14
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And it’s also, a rebuke to the people who would say that that you’re just trying to pray away the gay. I mean, pray, pray is important. Prayer is important. The prayer life is important that that that. That saying is toxic precisely because it’s a harsh truth. And of course, when you’re dealing with a half truth, you don’t know which half, right?
00:41:43:15 – 00:41:56:12
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
You know, you don’t have the whole picture. Okay. So so yeah, we prayed, but that’s not the whole story for it. You know, it’s but it’s an indispensable part of the story. I think that would be fair to say.
00:41:56:14 – 00:42:17:22
Dr. Linda Seiler
Yeah. The emphasis on prayer away the gay is all on the feelings. Have the feelings changed? It’s all the subjective and whereas transformation is not, feelings are a byproduct. And the emphasis is I’m going to align my sexuality with who God created me to be and that these feelings towards the same sex are simply fruit of a deeper root.
00:42:17:22 – 00:42:36:03
Dr. Linda Seiler
And so I’m not. Who cares about the feeling? Go after the root Holy spirit, where did these things get rooted in my thinking? Where did this originate? What’s going on under the hood that the check engine light keeps coming on? And when you resolve the root, then the fruit takes care of itself over time. And we don’t focus on the desires.
00:42:36:03 – 00:42:53:05
Dr. Linda Seiler
And even whether temptation happens or not, we look at temptation again through the grid. Of those three things I mentioned, we don’t have to be intimidated by temptation. We can be curious, not condemned, but curious and say, is this am I experiencing something that I’m sensing on someone else? Is it just the enemy trying to pull me back into my old life?
00:42:53:05 – 00:43:05:19
Dr. Linda Seiler
Or is is the Lord wanting to heal something deeper in me that still we haven’t gotten totally to the root yet, and I’m open to a greater healing work that God might want to continue in my life.
00:43:05:20 – 00:43:23:07
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Would it be fair to say that this is a threshold question? If somebody says God made me gay, that that is problematic, that if a ministry or a minister or somebody says God made you gay, that is a person to avoid.
00:43:23:09 – 00:43:29:20
Dr. Linda Seiler
Yes, because it’s not in alignment with Scripture nor science. It’s not a truthful statement.
00:43:29:22 – 00:43:53:09
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
That’s that’s a kind of the conclusion I’ve come to. And, you know, this this is nice, but it’s a little bit complicated. So if you just got this one, this one question is like, you know, you can root out a lot with that, that one question, you can eliminate a lot of problems. You know, Linda, one thing that I’ve been asking my guests who have made this journey, that I hope you’ll be able to share with us when you look back on it.
00:43:54:08 – 00:44:11:17
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Do you have advice for parents of people like yourself, people who are on this journey? What what can you suggest to them that would be helpful? What should they avoid? What can they do that is helpful? Just what do you think?
00:44:11:17 – 00:44:29:22
Dr. Linda Seiler
The number one thing I’ve found with parents is there is such an intense sense of introspection and guilt. My own parents went through this saying, what in the world did we do that? She ended up struggling in this way. They felt responsible and guilty. And again, as I mentioned in the beginning, Adam and Eve had a perfect father and they still sinned.
00:44:30:00 – 00:44:45:14
Dr. Linda Seiler
And so I think a lot of parents think, well, what did I do wrong? And how could I? And and if the Holy Spirit convicts you on something you said or did or need to change, then absolutely be open to that. But the reality is, you can’t distill everything down to one moment, one word. You said one action.
00:44:45:14 – 00:45:05:11
Dr. Linda Seiler
You did one relationship in our lives, in my life, it was just a myriad of factors. That is part of why it took 11 years, because I couldn’t point to just one thing and say, this is why. And and even now, I got still pointing out things in my life where wounds of rejection and things affect relationships in the way I think of people and so forth.
00:45:05:11 – 00:45:39:05
Dr. Linda Seiler
It we’re just continually in process with the Lord. So don’t beat yourself up. If you’re a parent, do not take the bait of Satan and blame yourself. What your child needs most is for you to, instead of condemning yourself and beating yourself up, is to join with your child against a common enemy. It is the enemy who comes to steal, kill, and destroy, wants to destroy your child’s sexuality, and your child needs you to stand in the fight, praying for them and believing with them and then not beating yourself up, which would neutralize you in the fight.
00:45:39:05 – 00:45:48:07
Dr. Linda Seiler
Who’s going to pray for your kid more fat, passionately and fervently than you? And the enemy knows that he wants to neutralize you.
00:45:48:09 – 00:46:13:16
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
That’s a very interesting point that you raise there, you know, to demoralize your best helper. There. Yeah, yeah. Linda, what is your preferred terminology for people who struggle with these issues? What do you call them? What do you call them while they’re on the journey? What do you call them when they’re done? Just just what’s your preferred terminology overall in this area?
00:46:13:18 – 00:46:20:14
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Because there’s a lot of damage is done, I think, by, misleading terminology and labels. Yes. What do you think?
00:46:20:15 – 00:46:48:00
Dr. Linda Seiler
Language is meaningful and it will shape the way we view things. So we talked about believing, oh, I’m born gay and I can’t change. There’s no evidence for that scientifically. It’s not biblical as far as our identity. So I don’t call somebody even I don’t even use anymore the term gay person or trans person. I’ll say gay identified or transgender identified because they’re choosing that identity.
00:46:48:02 – 00:47:14:09
Dr. Linda Seiler
As soon as we concede the language ground and say, well, it’s my orientation, this is who I am. Our culture today says orientation is inborn and immutable. You’re born that way, and it cannot change. Biblically speaking. I prefer to go with what the Bible says. The Bible says we have deceitful desires that remain subject to change throughout the process of progressive sanctification.
00:47:14:09 – 00:47:40:11
Dr. Linda Seiler
Being conformed to the image of Christ every day that we walk with him. So my my fallen desires do not dictate my identity. They do not determine my destiny. I die to those desires, and I let the Word of God determine my identity and my destiny. So as far as terminology, I’ll talk about desires. I’ll talk about attractions to the same sex, insecurity and who we feel like we are as men or women.
00:47:40:11 – 00:48:00:16
Dr. Linda Seiler
That’s what a gender identity is, something we created. All that is, is your subjective in your mind? Do you in your mind feel like you are the same as your physical body? And I, I put a meme on social media that the Holy Spirit just whispered to my heart one day. You know gender is not assigned at birth.
00:48:00:16 – 00:48:27:08
Dr. Linda Seiler
It is designed by our creator who knit us together in our mother’s womb. And so when we start looking at what Scripture says, the answer to a transgender mindset that I felt like David, but I had a female body, the answer was not to rearrange the skin on my body to match my fallen mind. The answer, scripturally, is to renew my mind, to match the body my creator has given me.
00:48:27:10 – 00:48:47:09
Dr. Linda Seiler
And so I like to use scriptural language, scriptural terminology, and I don’t. I had to use the language of sexual orientation change in my dissertation research, because I was building on other research, and it would be confusing not to use that terminology. But when I’m speaking with parents and and I call those who struggle overcomers, that’s a biblical term.
00:48:47:15 – 00:49:03:05
Dr. Linda Seiler
They are overcoming the things that used to dominate their lives. I don’t know, I used to call them strugglers, but you know what? That just kind of leaves you in this mindset of I’m forever going to be strong, but you’re in common in Christ, so let’s step into the new self and put off the old self.
00:49:03:07 – 00:49:25:14
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
That’s a really interesting phrase, and I agree the term struggling is not is not good. Elizabeth wanting convinced me to use to, to or show me the language of journeying, you know. Yes. Journey away from it. So sometimes, like so last June, we declared this week, declared the first Sunday in June to be Ex-gay Visibility Day.
00:49:25:16 – 00:49:48:06
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
But we were being a little bit mischievous when we did that. But and we chose just to call it that because everybody would know what we were talking about right away. But in general, I think a big, long, clunky phrase that doesn’t roll off the tongue is, is actually a good thing. Sure, because it means you’re thinking and it means person who’s listening to you has to think, where is a lot of these words have similar charge on them?
00:49:48:06 – 00:50:15:19
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
That automatically stuff comes racing into your mind that somebody else wants their you know, it is not necessarily the whole truth. Right. And so I endorse everything that you just said. I mean, that all makes a lot of sense. And I would encourage people to be very careful in your language, particularly with the, the so-called trans issue, because so many people can pin that label on themselves for any reason they want, you know, and that that’s subjective by definition.
00:50:15:19 – 00:50:27:10
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
So that’s really a mess. Linda, where can people get your book? What ministries and activities are you involved in? If people want to learn more and get involved with what you’re doing, where can we send them?
00:50:27:12 – 00:50:49:06
Dr. Linda Seiler
My book is available on Amazon, in paperback or Kindle, and soon will have an audible version up there. The the title is Trans Formation A Former Transgender Response to LGBTQ. The book was written to equip leaders and parents and overcomers. There’s discussion questions at the end of each chapter, so you could just use it as a tool in that way.
00:50:49:06 – 00:51:07:09
Dr. Linda Seiler
And it has my own story and parts of my dissertation research, the science in there, the psychology, and some of the outcomes of the research. As far as how do you help somebody who struggles with it, in addition to how do you respond to cultural conundrums like, I’m invited to a so-called gay wedding, do I go as a Christian?
00:51:07:09 – 00:51:28:04
Dr. Linda Seiler
Why or why not a transgender? Pronouns. Everything in the book starts with the foundation of Scripture, first and foremost, because if we start with people, we will elevate the second commandment above the first to love our neighbor as ourselves, greater than loving God in His Word first. But if we love God in His Word first, he’ll inform us how to love people with compassion without compromising His word.
00:51:28:04 – 00:51:45:18
Dr. Linda Seiler
So that’s the book. We also came out with a video series to accompany the book. Some people don’t like to read and they’d rather watch videos, and those are available on my website, which is just my name, Linda Seiler, dot com. We have a number of other resources on there. We talked some about the baptism in the Holy Spirit.
00:51:45:18 – 00:52:10:05
Dr. Linda Seiler
There’s a link on there of a whole teaching about what I believe as a Pentecostal about that, and where it’s found in Scripture and a number of other resources up there. In addition, I also serve as the executive director of Reese Story Ministries. Like God is Rewriting Your story. It’s a number of us who have all come out of LGBTQ, background, whether ourselves or a child that adopts an LGBTQ identity.
00:52:10:07 – 00:52:39:07
Dr. Linda Seiler
And we are contending for transformation. We’ve developed a number of resources there. We host conferences and teachings, and we’ve recorded some of those conferences into it. In equipping video series that’s available on our website. That’s Reese Story ministries.org, our Story Ministries, dawg, and there are a number of free resources up there as well. One page quick guides on how to respond to a variety of issues, tough topic papers, and so forth.
00:52:39:09 – 00:53:00:06
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Linda Seiler This has been a really enjoyable conversation. I’m so glad that Andrew Rodriguez introduced me to you and your work and your way of thinking, and I really value the work that you’re doing, and I’m so glad we got to spend some time together getting getting better acquainted. I have no doubt that many people are going to be very blessed by this conversation.
00:53:00:06 – 00:53:05:11
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
So I want to thank you so much for being my guest on today’s episode of The Doctor J show.
00:53:05:13 – 00:53:07:08
Dr. Linda Seiler
Thank you. It’s been a joy being with you today.
Have a question or a comment? Leave it in the comments, and we’ll get back to you!
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About the Ruth Institute
The Ruth Institute is a global non-profit organization, leading an international interfaith coalition to defend the family and build a civilization of love.
Jennifer Roback Morse has a Ph.D. in economics and has taught at Yale and George Mason University. She is the author of The Sexual State and Love and Economics – It Takes a Family to Raise a Village.
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