Hannah Spier | The Dr. J Show
Hannah Spier is a Norwegian-born medical doctor trained in Psychiatry in Norway and Switzerland, with a degree in Cognitive Behavioural Psychotherapy from the University of Zurich. Now based in Zurich with her husband and three children, she launched the Psychobabble publication and podcast in October 2022 to challenge postmodern influences and feminism, in particular, in the mental health field.
Dr. Hannah Spier discusses the impact of modern feminism on mental health, exploring how societal expectations influence women’s lives and psychological well-being. She shares her personal journey and professional insights, challenging conventional narratives and offering a fresh perspective on identity and fulfillment.
Link:
YouTube: @psychobabblewithspier
Website: https://substack.com/@UCZlHNlu2CVjcPy9sA8iBHkQ
00:00 – Introduction to Mental Health and Feminism
06:04 – The Young Woman’s Journey: Education and Emotional Needs
13:29 – The Careerist Feminine
21:11 – Personal Transformation: A Shift in Priorities
29:53 – Importance of Family Hierarchy
33:29 – The 30-Something Woman: Burnout and Life Choices
38:12 – The Impact of the Sexual Revolution
43:16 – Navigating Relationships and Commitment
52:03 – The Pain of Unfulfilled Motherhood
01:02:10 – IVF Ministries Playlist on Ruth Institute YouTube Channel
01:02:46 – Challenges of Working Mothers
01:10:31 – Is Divorce Avoidable?
01:16:23 – Understanding Feminism in Modern Context
01:23:56 – The Early Influences of Feminism on Girls
01:35:47 – The Role of Cooperation in Society
01:39:31 – Where to find Hannah Spier
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Transcript
(Please note the transcript is auto-generated and likely contains errors)
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (00:00.066)
People regret having kids. They’re being bombarded online. These articles and these videos.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (00:09.282)
They would go into this negative feedback loop and they would present with very often panic attacks, sudden onset panic attacks.
You see grown women who are having tantrums.
You need to understand your community and you cannot come in here. I do not want to take your hand. I do not want I do not respect you
the cluster B disorders that is that disorder and the emotional regulation. I think a lot of blame is put on social media and phones where the rise in these disorders can be tracked to when women went into the work force, full force.
And there’s no dad in the picture. You know, this is why the boys become have have more difficulty self-regulating.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (00:54.638)
Yeah.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (01:01.582)
This idea that men oppressed women is so false. It’s so false. It’s a scandal. We think of success in male terms only. That puts the marriage also at risk. So we’re not seeing those healthy marriages anymore.
You feel that they’re all attachment related in some way.
At the root of all of that is attachment.
Number one, I categorically reject anybody’s right to speak for all women. I’m done. You talk to me like that. I’m done. Secondly, the idea that the interests of men and the interests of women are always necessarily in conflict with each other.
Yeah, that bugs me as well. They’re pitting the sexes against each other.
Hannah Spier (01:48.056)
Feminism has been a public presence throughout my entire adult life. Some people see feminism as unambiguously good, giving it credit for women’s education, financial independence, and personal autonomy. Others despise everything remotely related to feminism. I myself decided some years ago to stop using the term because I found that the ambiguity about its meaning got in the way of discussing the issues that really mattered to me. But today,
I’m going to make an exception and talk about feminism. I’ve discovered a very interesting person that I want to introduce you to. Hi everyone, I’m Dr. Jennifer Robach-Morris, founder and president of the Ruth Institute, an international interfaith coalition to defend the family and build a civilization of love. My guest today is Dr. Hannah Speer, a Norwegian-born medical doctor trained in psychiatry in Norway and Switzerland.
She has a degree in cognitive behavioral psychotherapy from the University of Zurich. She calls herself the anti-feminist psychiatrist. Why? Because in her clinical practice, she has observed so much unhappiness and so many pathologies that flow directly from feminist ideology. You’re going to hear a wide-ranging conversation between a psychiatrist, Dr. Speer, and an economist, that’s me, about feminism and its long-range consequences.
Dr. Spear is now based in Zurich with her husband and three children. Her Psycho Babble Popcast challenges postmodernism and feminism, especially in the mental health field. I know you’re going to be fascinated by this conversation and you’ll want to share it with your friends, especially young women. Dr. Hannah Spear, welcome to the Dr. J Show.
Hi Jennifer, thank you so much for having me, it’s a pleasure.
Hannah Spier (03:38.636)
Yes, I discovered you on Substack and then met you over at the ARC conference, the Alliance for Responsible Citizenship Conference. So we got just a very brief interaction with you and me and 4,000 of our closest friends over there. It was quite the scene. But I really wanted to bring you on to introduce you to the Ruth Institute followers that we have over here on our YouTube channel and whatnot. Because I think your take on
the mental health issues that have been spun off by feminism, I think is going to be helpful to a lot of people. you had an article on your Substack page called, Psychiatric Therapy Won’t Heal What Feminism Broke. What is the main idea of this article?
The idea comes from my what I’ve observed in clinical practice and that I treated a lot of women in different age groups. And when I went through my journey after having gone through what I did and probably come back to that, I started putting some things together. And that was these patterns that I saw popping up in different women were in different ages. I saw that they were just
similar type of symptoms that they would present with. And when I started looking into feminism, I thought there’s a commonality here. And I started looking at feminism as a pathogen, because it’s so resentment from so early on in every girl’s life. And they then they build their lives.
these feminist principles with feminist attitudes that will at some point in their lives lead to psychopathology and so I sort of laid that out what it looks like in different ages and What sort of mental disorders they would if you want to call it that what sort of psychopathology they present with So that was the that was that article?
Hannah Spier (05:47.094)
Yes. let’s start with the youngest type that you would describe. Because I think that’s how you have the article set up too. You know, the young lady who comes to you in her 20s, maybe. Is that the first type? I forget exactly. But anyway, let’s start youngest to oldest and describe what some of these pathways look like.
Yes, I because I worked with girls with women from 17. So not really adolescents, but so I was an adult psychiatrist. That’s where I have my specialization. So the first girl she would be in her 20s, some point in her 20s and go through her university degree. And I just saw that there were so many of these girls that were pushed through degrees that they neither had the interest for nor the
capacity to finish. By capacity, I do mean that they weren’t really interested in the subject, that’s one thing, but they weren’t, their focus was on something else. So I saw that they had this unmet emotional, unmet attachment need that they were subconsciously trying to fill.
And they had been taught and they also consciously thought that they could fill that with academic achievement and ambition. And that didn’t work. So no matter what they did, they would concentrate more on their dating life, on their social life, and to the detriment of their academic achievements. So they would go into this negative feedback loop and they would present with very often
panic attacks, sudden onset panic attack without having any encounter with psychiatry before, or health related anxieties like sudden hypochondria. And, and then they would go into the spiral of
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (07:49.422)
Not getting enough sleep because that’s the first thing that happens when you when you have anxiety You can’t sleep then they wouldn’t be able to concentrate the next day. They wouldn’t meet their deadlines They would start getting bad grades, which they’d never had in their lives You know, we tailor schools to girls strengths So they they they they had they would they had always had read reviews good grades and now suddenly they’re struggling and so they didn’t have coping strategies for that and they would go
they would go out in the evenings and so that would just exacerbate things and they would be devastated. And I saw that there was this pattern of they were having, they had a successful date, they would come to therapy and they would be elated. And then two weeks later, this 20 year old guy in college, of course, he was nowhere to be found, of course, he didn’t want to commit, and she would be devastated and come and just completely floored. So there was just
this this yes, I want I’m ambitious I want all these things that I’ve been told to want the degree the job the office that have a very vivid image of what they what sort of life they wanted usually like it would be something that they’d seen on TV right there want to come in with my outfit I want to have a little bag I want to they would describe these these pictures to me of of what they wanted but.
they wouldn’t be focusing on the things that they would in that case need to focus on to make that happen. So they would spend a lot of their energy on dating unsuccessfully and be in this feedback loop five anxieties. can’t do what I need to do at school and this motivational conflict. And that’s what I keep describing also in this article that these women be they in their twenties or thirties or forties, they
They get stuck in a motivational conflict and that is the conflict between what is and what I want it to be. And that creates psychopathology.
Hannah Spier (09:56.142)
Okay, so this is very interesting. There’s a part of this I was prepared for, part of this I wasn’t quite prepared for. The part I was prepared for was that they would be focused on the schooling and the career and so on, and that they might not be successful in their dating life. But you’re telling me they didn’t even really want the career, that they had a kind of fantastic image of what their job was going to look like, they’re interested in how they’re going to look.
Exactly.
And the accessories of it, so to speak, like the bag, like said, they have a they have a they don’t have a realistic. They kind of want your job. You know, they want to be a professional woman who’s successful and driven and all of that. male or female, that’s a very small part of the population. Right. Not everybody has careers. A lot of people have jobs, you know.
Yes, people have jobs.
So there’s that mismatch and then there’s the mismatch, there’s the dating problem, which I thought you were going to talk more about that, that the hookup culture was making them depressed. Is that a thing in Switzerland?
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (11:10.914)
casual sex fantasy. All over the West, all over the West, but they don’t they don’t want they they say that they were they’re told that they can just have sex and have, you know, date like men date. Their actions tell a different story this that they come to me then and they’re absolutely devastated when the dates don’t go their way. But they’re embarrassed about that reaction. Yes.
So they’ll tell their friends, I didn’t want to, I don’t care. I didn’t want him, but they’ll show their real feelings to me. As I knew that they wanted the commitment. They were ecstatic when they got the third, the fourth date. that they would just the energy and the concentration on achieving that was just so imbalanced with what they needed to do to these degrees.
They require a lot from you, right? They go into, they study business and marketing and these are difficult degrees and they would need to focus at least as much on that as they do on these dates.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you used a phrase that I want to come back to. They had unfulfilled detachment needs. And of course, a job and good grades don’t fill an attachment need. They fill some other need, but not an attachment need. Talk to people about the unfilled detachment need that you’re seeing in the young ladies.
Yeah, think that is, you know, I had a supervisor once and he said of all the mental disorders that he had seen on the rise since he had 40 years of experience, he owns his own clinic, he owned the clinic where I was working at. The cluster B disorders, they were the ones that had shocked him the most. And then I’m talking about borderline impulsive, that’s the cluster B narcissism. And that is at the root of that.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (13:13.534)
is an attachment disorder. And that is this you we need to feel close to others, we need to have that one that significant other and that is our parents, our mothers. So these girls would be devastated that they didn’t have the bond to their mother that they would that they would want. They were always talking about how they’re neglected by their mothers. And this of course, really mothers when India, their mothers went into the workplace in the 90s.
So this isn’t, I think a lot of blame is put on social media and phones where the rise in these disorders can be tracked to when women went into the workforce, full force.
Right, and nobody wants to say anything against women in the workforce, okay? Nobody wants to say anything about that. Now, I wanna pick up the thread. Well, I wanna hear your personal story because you had a transformation yourself here, but I wanna just chime in with mine because my children came into our lives in the 90s, okay, in the 1990s. My husband and I had four years of infertility.
We adopt a little boy from Romania who was two and a half years old when we got him. And then we had a little girl six months later. So we’re adoptive parents and birth parents. And Hannah, it was right in our face, attachment disorder. We were, we became informed by various people who knew what they were talking about that reactive attachment disorder was a big, ugly, dangerous thing, you know. And so we were.
all in on that. And of course, my plan had been to put him in daycare, you know, because that’s what everybody did in the 90s. You know, you put your kids in daycare, you don’t miss a day work and all of that. And you know, over time, and I had people telling me that that’d be fine, you know, and over time, it became clear that that just wasn’t going to be fine. it, I mean, and now our boy, I’ll just tell you, our boy is doing fine. You know, he’s a very tenderhearted guy. And, you know, he’s not reactive. How old is he?
Hannah Spier (15:18.766)
whatsoever. I he’s in his 30s now, know, 37, I think. Yeah. But of course, we didn’t know that going into it that it was going to be fine. You know, we had we had to really invest in that. But at that time, at the time I was writing my first book, I did research on daycare on the impact of daycare on kids. And there was one guy, Jay Belsky, who was willing to say, you know, some of these kids are having attachment problems.
especially the little boys, the little boys at age four, you know, they were the ones falling apart in daycare. Yeah, they need more from their mommies. And that poor guy got beat up all over the place with this huge federally funded study of daycare, all done by professional working women with PhDs, right? All committed to showing that it’s fine. The kids are fine. They’re going to be fine.
They buried a lot of that research actually also looked into it that that that’s it’s a scandal, but especially for a little boys because their stress hormone levels are higher, they need they need more and the daycares they bring out that fight flight response. So kids in daycare across the board, they have higher cortisol levels than kids who are raised at home. So that’s just, that’s just reality. Yes, there’s also that
Because kids don’t have a concept of time. don’t they don’t take care. They don’t know if mom’s going to come back in an hour the next day or ever. Right. And it’s that attachment that comes up that that that’s yes, we need that buffer towards the because for a kid, everything is a threat. Everything is dangerous. They need that. This is the boundary towards the outside world. That’s the parents. we know when we
Right? Right.
Hannah Spier (17:14.253)
Mommy’s there. Mommy’s in the room, Mary Ainsworth and the strange situation test that she devised. know, look, the kids are playing in the room and, oh, mom’s over there. Okay, now I can go play some more because I know mom’s there and I don’t have to be hanging on her. I don’t have to be hanging on her. just know she’s there.
Yes, it’s.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (17:36.748)
you see it that kids will fall and they’ll look back. And they’ll have that that’s the attachment. Yes. And so you have different forms of attachment disorders and and and when we don’t learn to properly emotionally regulate. And that’s the the cluster B disorders that is that disorder in the emotional regulation. So you have then you see a lot of young women now.
They’re doing this black and white thinking, right? Splitting. can’t distinguish between, you know, when a situation is very stressful to them, it’s like it’s all or nothing. They’ll idolize someone and then they’ll suddenly be a villain. So you have this sort of, we have, you see grown women who are having tantrums. We see this with the, when Trump won, women were crying in the street.
So that is faulty emotional regulation. You should be able to respond.
Would you just pause and tell people what cluster B is and list it out for us? Because I have a vague familiarity with it, but a lot of our listeners won’t. Just spell it out for us if you would.
Yes. So this is, as I said, I like to think of it as emotional dysregulation. And so you’ll have different things. have to think because we here use the international classification system of diagnosis. And in the US, you do the DSM. in the US, you call it cluster B. So it’s this histrionic borderline narcissism.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (19:20.366)
And so the cluster diagnosis are good because it never forms. You’re only a narcissist or only a borderline. It’s very often you have a bit of both. So it’s what I see you have splitting, you have black and white thinking, you have a problem with your identity, the problem of the self. Very often you have…
You are very impulsive, you will hurt yourself, you have the self harm, the suicidal ideation. All of these are symptoms of, this cluster B disorder, this cluster B block. that’s very-
And you feel that they’re all attachment related in some way or
the root of all of that is attachment because that is where we get our emotional, where we’re taught emotional regulation.
Yes, yes. And so, so we started with your article, I knew we’d have no trouble finding something to talk about Hannah, we started, we only got one out of your three or four characters out of this article. But we’ve already established some important things that the, the careerist feminism, let’s call it that, okay. The careerist thread of feminism that says, you go girl, get a job. That’s the that’s the path to happiness for a woman.
Hannah Spier (20:43.53)
already you’re seeing problems with that, which that’s probably the least controversial part of feminism. There are other parts that are much more obviously toxic, you know, but even with this thing that lots of people would be willing to endorse, there’s a whole cascade of other follow on problems, you know, so I think that’s an important, an important point. May I ask you at this point, if you wouldn’t mind,
You have a degree, you have a medical degree and a psychiatric degree, which means you spent a lot of time in higher education. So at some point in your life, your priorities shifted around. Tell people, if you don’t mind, tell us your story, Hannah.
Right. So I’m born in Norway, born and raised. And I started working as a doctor in Norway and the far up north. So where you have midnight sun and four months of darkness, that’s really far up north because there you have a very centralized system in Norway where you sort of you get placed somewhere. So I was more or less placed up there. I was single without a family and
But since I’m Jewish, I knew that I always had to, there aren’t a lot of Jews in Norway. So I knew that I’d have to find a husband elsewhere and relocate. So that was always in my future. So I found my husband online. And I mean that I found him and I winked and then four months later I said, okay, I’ll move to Switzerland. So he’s Swiss born.
And then I continued my residency here in Switzerland. I learned German. I didn’t know German, so I had to learn German to work in German here in Switzerland. And then I had to go into the Swiss residency system where you then also have to do a degree in psychotherapy. So I did that here at the university as well. I did, that was very busy. But then, you know, we got married.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (22:53.934)
and I had my first child and then everything changed. that, I was, when you’re raised in Norway, you just, you’re, you are a feminist. That’s, know, everyone there’s, we were raised with strong egalitarian ideals. And, and I remember I had a fight with my husband when I was pregnant, because I thought it was so, so unfair. And I think
many can recognize this. do I have to take a break? Why do I have to pause in my ambition and become a mother? Why do I have to take that maternal leave? And, you know, why does it all follow me, fall on me? And why can you just continue as if nothing happened, as if there is no baby coming into the world? Now that I don’t know if that sounds familiar to you.
I’m laughing for a reason. May I ask how old were you when you had your first child?
I was 28.
You were 28. Oh, you’re way ahead of the norm. You’re ahead of the norm. Well.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (23:59.414)
Yeah. And everyone was always telling me like, you have plenty of time. And now in Norway, the average age for getting married for women is 35. I was always criticized by friends and family for going too quickly. And they were always telling me I should be single for a year. I should be single. should be sick. I should find myself. And I was like, no, have to find
Yeah.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (24:21.984)
someone Jewish, that’s a task in and of itself. They were always telling me, I was very conscious that I had this attachment need. was very lonely. I was very lonely. so I knew, so I didn’t listen. Thank God. Thank God I didn’t listen.
Yes, yes. You had another overriding value system that kicked in, that trumped feminism. For you, finding a Jewish husband was a more important value than anything that feminism was going to offer you. And so, like you said, thank God. Literally.
Exactly
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (24:59.434)
Exactly. was. Yeah, I that was a very, that was a savior. If I knew that, I could just find any Norwegian man and just that would be so easy or so many just around here, wherever it would have taken much longer because I knew I had that task that was very difficult and aren’t a lot of Jewish men. and then, so that was the.
So there you were, you’re having this quarrel with your husband. Yeah, did you guys resolve it? What happened? What happened that I could see?
I’m
Yeah, that was just a different person. And then then I had my baby and I was like, Oh, oh, like what just happened? It’s just the biological reality just came over me like a tidal wave, just really just really hit me. And, and I remember telling him after like, if you’d taken a single month of my maternity leave, I would set you on fire, like, get away from my maternity leave. I want to be with my baby. he was like,
And thankfully, we hadn’t done the whole Norwegian paternity leave because we were here. But in Norway, you know, fathers have to take three months maternity paternity leave. And what’s funny, they see they’re seeing now that only 65 % of Norwegian fathers actually take their leave. And because of the way the system is, if they don’t take that leave, they don’t get the money at all. So they’re saying no, thank you to money to free money.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (26:30.03)
And you just say and 50 % of new mothers in Norway, they’re taking unpaid leave. So they’re ending up paying double just so that mothers can be with their babies. Isn’t that crazy? And everyone’s talking about the parental leave of Norway is just as well. You’re so lucky. And we are telling people with our actions. This isn’t what we value.
Equal doesn’t work. To treat the mother and the father in the same way is not to be equally attentive to their needs. That’s the thing you need to understand. I had a little boy who was extremely needy because of his two and a half years of extreme deprivation. Of course I spent more time with him. And at some point I’m like, oh my gosh.
Am I treating my son more better than my daughter? You know, have all this kind of inner dialogue and I’m like, well, no, that’s ridiculous. You my daughter doesn’t need speech therapy. My daughter doesn’t need occupational therapy. I’m equally committed to doing whatever they need. And you and your husband are equally committed to the good of the family. And that requires different things of each of you, you know, in terms of work versus home and all that kind of thing. Yeah, so.
Yeah, so that’s then what then then then I was thankful that we hadn’t done done any of that. And I just enjoyed my daughter. And suddenly, overnight, all those ambitions, because I had this clear image as well that I said I was that my my patients echoed to me then later, this, want to become something at the age of something, I had this very clear vision, I wanted to become a department head.
By the age of 31 it was so specific. I feel so silly saying it now, but I have this That’s what I wanted and I’d probably seen it somewhere, but that was just and that was just gone overnight
Hannah Spier (28:32.854)
Yeah, that’s so interesting.
that was because I was conscious of that, then that that just that that’s when I started looking into why that would happen. And what else I’d been wrong about. And so I started listening, I read a lot of Janice Fiamengo was a huge was a huge then Idle when I say what the for built like exactly I listen as I said, yeah, this is not feminism.
she influenced you.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (29:03.486)
is a very dangerous thing. And what I had were feminist attitudes. Why should I and not you? Why does it have to fall on me? That’s resentment. And that’s why I say very clearly now, feminism is the pathogen of resentment.
Yes, yes, yes. And we have the same kinds of stuff too in our situation. You can imagine the year 1991 was a big year at the Morse Ranch when we have two kids in six months time. You gotta let it go of a lot of stuff or you’re just gonna go to pieces. what mean? You can’t be hanging on to that stuff. And in our particular case, we did have therapists explaining to us the different significance that I had in this child’s life, that he needed a mommy.
He didn’t need high quality daycare. He needed mommy. That’s me. That means me face to face. I can’t outsource that in any way whatsoever. know, I mean, you know, that’s the key thing that had to happen. And at some point, my husband went to this thing. This was, you know, five or six years later or something. He went to this thing that was a program for parents of attachment disorder kids. A lot of foster parents, a lot of adoptive parents, you know, kind of trying to deal with these things.
Yes.
Hannah Spier (30:17.954)
My husband comes home from this thing and he says, Jen, here’s what we have to do. You are the queen of this household. I have to treat you with so much respect. I have to put you on a pedestal. And if he disrespects you, I gotta get right in his face and you did what to my wife? You said what? You know, I have to protect you because he needs to attach to you. If you look like a wimp, that won’t work. If I’m in quarreling with you, that won’t work, you know, for him to get better.
you have to be the queen, so I have to be your protector. And I’m like, I don’t know what this samurai was, but I like this.
Bring it!
You
I know, but then when you think about it, it makes so much sense because like when he walks through the door and lots of parents, lots of families can report this experience. When dad walks through the door, it’s like, for me, he’s home. He didn’t have to do anything. He just walks through the door. He’s an authority figure. The kids shape up all of a sudden, you know, they shape up a little bit, you know, it’s like,
Hannah Spier (31:26.05)
How does this even work? mean, feminism does not prepare us to face that, you know, to see that and understand what it is, you know, that that’s, that’s patriarchy, as it’s meant to be that that’s God or being patriotic built into our body.
that too. Yeah, because behind, like, behind our threat, the mother’s threat has to be a strong dad. Otherwise, the kids will walk all over you. Yeah, because what are you what are you gonna do? There has to be that that physical threat, there has to be a hierarchy and without it, they feel unsafe. And so that’s the if you go to the extreme you have now
gentle parenting. And that’s the extreme of that the father as physically absent or has been censored so so hard by a very, very strong feminist mother. And, you know, the children, they do whatever they want, there is no hierarchy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There’s no enforcement mechanism within the home. Do you know, when I started giving speeches about this, one of the things that I would notice from time to time would be a single mother or one time it was a judge. It was a female African-American judge. So a very distinguished person. And she had responsibility for a nephew. And by the time that nephew got to be 14 or 15, she couldn’t control him.
You know, it’s one thing to be a single mother to an infant. It’s a crazy thing for a different reason. But when the child is bigger than you are, and there’s no dad in the picture, you know, this is why the boys become, have more difficulty self-regulating, you know, why the violence and criminality is so often follows in the wake of fatherlessness in the child’s life. So anyway, let’s go on to your next character.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (33:09.357)
Yeah.
Hannah Spier (33:29.184)
You have another character, we’re still in our 20s here, where have
Exactly, David.
That’s okay, go ahead, go ahead. Yeah, who’s your next character?
I think it’s very interesting this this so glide over to that to the 30 year old so that this this image that 20 year old has of I want this type of life I want this job I want to have my little outfit and my cute bag and I have she’s she’s gonna she’s gonna experience some discomfort when she then does finish that degree does get a job
because the because in reality that that’s just not gonna it’s not gonna happen for her. Because like you said, most people have jobs, then she experiences this anticlimactic reality of just having a normal office and having to to work like others work and just it’s a it’s a grind. And so the 30 something year old woman
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (34:39.574)
She’s the one who would then made it through the degree, had perhaps a long-term boyfriend and does everything right. And she would come in burnt out because she’s suddenly looking up from her normal desk in her normal office and thinking why she doesn’t have a why. And she hasn’t, she has, she has no meaning.
And she’s realizing also this conflict, motivational conflict, what is suddenly her goal has shifted. She’s on the wrong path. And that happens subconsciously because there’s this, there’s the reality of declining ovarian reserves. So that’s the cliche of the biological clock. It’s a cliche for a reason. And when she then
This was the archetype, as I call it, that got to me the most because they are so, they’ve so boxed themselves in by their choices that there is nothing really that you can do as a therapist. So they come and they have fatigue. They’re tired all the time. They find pleasure in nothing anymore that they used to. don’t, have, they’re hopeless. They don’t see what they’re going to do in the future.
They don’t want to get up in the morning. And that is that this, the thing that gave them dopamine kicks before it doesn’t anymore. Cause we’re, we’re, we have a dopamine release. We feel happy and hopeful when we get reminders that yes, you are on the right track. You are on the path towards your goal. That’s when we feel that hopefulness, that dopamine kick. But if you’re suddenly, your goal shifts to way over here, those, those kicks are going to be.
too far between they’re gonna be the you’re not going to feel energetic anymore. And so that’s this burnout. I’m not a fan of that. But it is one so we have to use it.
Hannah Spier (36:50.048)
And she’s also getting reinforcement for the idea that she’s on the wrong path, that what she’s doing isn’t working, but she doesn’t know what will work. she hasn’t figured out, or has she? By this time, do they come to you and say, know, gee, I wish I was married or gee, I wish I was not alone? Or is that part of what you see amongst the…
Yeah, that’s a very good, that’s a very good point. No, no, very often, because they go and they read about their symptoms, and they’re told that they have this burnout. And this is why I don’t like this diagnosis, because they’re told that they’re overworked. They’re told that all they need is to rest. And so they’re often given sick leave, they’re told to take a step back, they’re told to be kind to themselves. And I read
So the thing you do when you’re a psychiatrist is that you are responsible for the patients, an award, you’re responsible for all the patients in that department, medically. So I had to sit and go through what other therapists did with the patients to see, there any somatic symptoms that I need to be aware of because I’m prescribing the medications, right? So that’s when…
I had one of these eye-opening moments where I saw that they were all writing the same things. And they were writing, we talked about self-care. We talked about how to rest. We talked about how, what I need to rest. It was like that, that that’s not what these women need to talk about. They need to talk about bigger things. They need to talk about how to get meaning back in their life, how to put their lives in order. Their problem isn’t that they have worked too much.
in this nine to five job that they started six months ago. Why aren’t the CEOs of the company who’ve worked 70 hour weeks for I don’t know how many years, why aren’t they having the burnouts? They’re not. It’s these women in their 30s. They need to take a hard look at what their biological realities and they’re being told that, you know, having families isn’t for everyone.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (39:08.162)
They’re told being told how people regret having kids. being bombarded online. These articles and these videos of women regretting having kids and they’re being told something very sinister. that is having kids is wrong for just as many women as it’s right for. Have you heard this? It’s wrong for just as many. So they’re giving the idea that it’s a 50-50 thing whether or not you should be having kids.
When in reality is a very, very small subset of women with a particular personality structure that has that that don’t feel the call to motherhood that don’t have those maternal desires. And they’ll be the first ones, the first ones to say, I wish I was like everyone else.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That’s very interesting because what you’re really talking about is the structure of the person, you know, that we’re… I’m a Roman Catholic just for… just full disclosure. And we have this thing, this understanding that the human person is meant for love. This is the deepest part of the human identity. You know, we were created by God as an act of love. God wants us creating each other, participating in procreation as an act of love, you know. We don’t want…
reproduction, want procreation, you we want to be part of that ongoing process of love. And so to say to somebody, it’s a coin toss, whether you’re a mom or not, is to fundamentally misunderstand the human condition. That’s what I think.
Yeah, yeah, that’s what we but there we have in our religions we it’s not a shame to say that We’re obligated to believe in humankind that we should procreate but these women are grown up with is that really good for the environment, right? They these concerns and they think that if I want a baby, that’s just selfish that’s just if I want it it would be just for the self rather than no, it’s for the
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (41:08.731)
It’s for society. what we have to do as humans. They don’t have that.
Right, right. really don’t. And it strikes me that the population control people who really started the sexual revolution, in my opinion, the deepest responsibility for the sexual revolution going as far, you everybody wants to have sex that is not problematic. People love the idea of doing whatever you want sexually. But most grownups understand this is impossible. The people who really promoted that were the population control people. And this what they did to the feminine psyche.
was part of their plan. John D. Rockefeller III was getting nowhere when he was telling people in the 60s, too many people, too many people, population control. They all thought he was a creep. that, you know, you know, because who are you telling me how many kids to have? But when he figured out that female empowerment and women’s education, that by promoting that, which sounds much more appealing, by promoting that, he could get most of his objectives.
because they would voluntarily have fewer kids if they don’t get started until they’re 28. And that’s what these kids, that’s the clients that you’re seeing, this is the part of their psyche that has been deliberately hidden from them. The fact that it is absolutely natural to wanna have a baby, to wanna be with the baby. Six weeks, dropping the baby off at daycare at six weeks is not natural.
that is
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (42:45.13)
Yeah. And they’re also the there’s so many there’s so many of these lights are there so confused these young women. It’s just because they’re also being portrayed families that aren’t happy. And they have this feeling of powerlessness. It will what what would it look like? And how would I have to figure out sort of the perfect, the perfect chess game before I can embark on the journey of becoming a mother like this some
thing that they have to figure out before. Instead of and and and these women that this this archetype this 30 something year old woman, she’s very often in a relationship with a man who doesn’t want to commit. So that’s the other element that, you know, men who want don’t want to commit, commit. The career woman is the perfect gift for them. They want to she she’s
preoccupied with this other thing. Great, we can travel together, we can have double income, we can afford all these things that I, that I, that I want. That’s not I have the greatest understanding for men, I completely understand why so many avoid commitment, the system is stacked against them. I’m a very strong men’s rights advocate. That’s not to say but that’s just the reality. Many don’t want to commit and then it’s they know this type of woman isn’t going to bother me.
with that. Suddenly she does. And then he feels betrayed. Well, we were in agreement. We were gonna at least wait what suddenly every conversation is afraid of going into the living room. Because he knows the conversation is going to go to well, when my friend just got engaged. Every conversation is that look, they’re doing this. Don’t shouldn’t we be talking about this? Or he’s feeling
completely, they’re at this impasse, both know exactly what the other person wants. And so this is often this, this girl who is stuck in that relationship, where is that going? And then in therapy, she has to then confront. Well, I should I be 34 and single? How does that work? I haven’t been single for seven years. What do I have to do then like dating apps?
Hannah Spier (44:55.939)
Yeah.
Hannah Spier (45:00.054)
Right, right, right. And she’s given her best years of fertility to a guy who won’t commit. And you don’t realize that until after the fact.
And
And you can know you know that throwing good money after bad. That’s what they then do. Because they’ve, they’ve spent all these years with that person. And then they start doing the math. Okay, well, if I break up now, then how long would it take until I have a new relationship? And they do have done this with them in therapy. Good therapy wouldn’t say you need to rest. And then things and then things will happen. You’ll figure it out, you know, he will come around, he
Mmm…
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (45:38.944)
He usually doesn’t. But good therapy as you, you this causes you fear and anxiety, this thought of going out into the dating market. But what also should cause you fear is wasting another two years and then being 36 and single on the dating market. So you have to sort of put these the appropriate situations up against each other.
and see which fear do we want to manage and how which coping strategies could we build? How would we go about that? What? would we go about making you attractive on the dating market together? Very few therapies look like this. It looks like as I was reading self care, self care, self care.
Hannah Spier (46:34.978)
Right, right. Feuding the Top 5 Gay Myths. It’s filled with our unique combination of personal stories and nerdy data. You can click on the footnotes and be taken directly to the references. It’s totally free, so sign up at the link below today.
I would presume that also another part of that process, if you’re going to really do therapy and get to the heart of things, is going to be for her to confront the mistakes that she’s been making, the sort of mistake and thought process. And that’s a very hard thing for people to face. I think as religious people, we have an advantage in that because we don’t expect ourselves to be perfect. We kind of have that built into the religious thought process, that, okay, we’re going to mess up and…
We have a whole way of dealing with that, you but, but therapeutically, if you try to break, if you try to broach that with a client, how does that go? Or do you, do you even get to that point where you say, you know, maybe going all the way back to age 14, you got off the wrong, you got, you were on the wrong track here. I don’t know. How does that go, Hannah?
Yeah, that’s it’s it’s it you have to paint pictures with them. You have to encourage painting pictures of the future, because that is very scary. You can’t do anything with mistakes of the past. So I don’t waste a lot of time on that. Because to the you know, I hear the clock ticking for them. Right. And then that’s just very, most 80 % of therapists are female. And they’re on religious and we have surveys on that.
how under 10 % would even bring up religious affiliation in therapy, but they’ll talk about political views. But they’re overwhelmingly liberal, unreligious females. So just this painting a picture of the future, five years in the future, what do you want? What do you want it to look like? That’s already a lot.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (48:39.446)
And then yeah, I mean, okay, when then you really have to start doing some math with them and being very honest. And that’s, I think that’s good therapy. There aren’t all these tricks. so that I’m talking a lot on Psycho Babble is why I call it Psycho Babble, this postmodern influence. I do think that we try to make therapy and psychiatry and psychology much more complicated than it really is. I’ve clergy have been doing this.
Yeah
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (49:08.174)
for decades, much better than we have. so I think a lot of people belong with them rather than with us is just sadly, most people are secular.
Right, right, especially where you are at this point. And so maybe one thing that would be helpful would be to say, you need to be very clear with your boyfriend. I mean, if this is a person with a boyfriend, like you’re talking about a cohabiting situation, you you need to set down the limits here, you know, that, hey, it’s time to put up or shut up. And this is one of the reasons, by the way.
that in social science, we have found consistently that cohabitation doesn’t work. If by work, you mean that it helps people establish a better marriage later, you know, it does not, you know, there’s not one positive contribution of cohabitation.
Much higher divorce rate later on as well.
And this is part of it, the avoidance of the problem. This is the problem in the middle of the room that you won’t face.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (50:14.666)
Yes. So they have to figure out that’s paint that picture, because they have to get out of that motivational conflict. First and foremost, they have to be honest. What? Where am I now? A, what is and what would I like it to be? And before they have any productive conversations, they have to find that out before they go and be. But often those conversations have already taken place. They’ve already had plenty of fights about commitment and marriage and all of all of that. It’s really just that
that for them most often when they’re stuck is that fear of how do I how am I going to be single? How am I going to find another one? Because very often they’re already quite detached from that boyfriend. It’s about bringing that being honest with themselves about what they want. They want that baby. And it’s so sad. I promise you, Jennifer, so many are embarrassed. They’re embarrassed to say
that I do want the child. It’s so heartbreaking to me that that’s something that they have to, they feel that they’re selfish for wanting that. Often in those conversations, they come back and they’ve been made to feel like a silly little girl who wants to have that piece of paper. It’s just a piece of paper. Why do you need it? And they’re seeing all these tantrumy kids everywhere and their boyfriends will tell them, like, what if we have a kid like that?
What if you see them tantruming on the floor and Walmart? we, what if we have one of those? We will be so unhappy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There are plenty of excuses. There are plenty of excuses to not go forward. I wanna say, I wanna move on to your next group. The ladies who are married, we wanna move on. I have to say one thing about this because we were this couple that we cohabited and finally got married and then finally started having kids. The thing I wanna say is that my husband to this day will periodically say to me, I am so sorry.
Hannah Spier (52:21.016)
that I dragged my feet about having kids. I know you wanted it sooner. I wish we had started sooner. I am so sorry. To this day, he says that. And I just want the men to understand that. I feel like, fellas, we count on you to be rational sometimes. Feminism, of course, never wants to admit this. But sometimes we need our husbands to make us settle down, you know, and to help us regulate our emotions and, you know, and all of that. And so…
You’re not being a tyrant when you do that, so we need you. mean, it’s just we need you guys. Yeah, that’s what I want to say. But.
But often we are the we are the end we are the the the ones who steer and they they make things happen right okay they provide them but we say okay you know we’re having that third kid now this is happening and I don’t see that knowing their worth knowing their value in women now they’re so afraid and embarrassed about the wrong thing and just locked in their fears yeah
Yes. The resentment spins off a lot of fears, I think, you know, I mean, I think it’s important that you identified resentment as a key feature of the feminist ideology, whatever we want to call it. That’s, you know, the egalitarianism, misguided egalitarianism has resentment running all through it.
Yeah, think a lot of that is, is, is that we identify, we think of success in male terms only. Yes. And so women are very much resentful that they’re not men, because only men can be successful in that we no longer see what is a successful mother, you’re not you’re no longer allowed to identify a successful woman or what is a good woman.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (54:12.312)
You’re not, you’re allowed to say what’s good man, what’s a bad man. But there is no such thing as a bad woman or a bad mother. No, no. Everything’s sort of, if you want to be a working mother, you’re as good as someone who dedicates yourself completely. You see that there’s this, and there’s that resentment from, well, you know, only men can be successful because we’ve defined
success in male terms. And I think that’s economic.
Yes. Yes. And you know what? I think this is a good time to say in my book up here, The Sexual State, the opening chapter of that book has a list of people who justify the sexual revolution in some way or another. And one driver that nobody talks about is business, big business, the business sector, the market sector, whatever you want to call it. The fact is this feminist, this ideology that we call careerist feminism.
It has delivered women to the workplace. It has delivered to employers a group of people who want to prove themselves, who have emotional investment in succeeding in the workplace, you know, and who are defining themselves in your terms. They’re defining themselves and their success in market terms, not in home terms. You add to that the instability in marriage, and now you’ve got a desperate
group of potential employees. mean, these women you’re describing, they’re desperate for their jobs because that’s all they’ve got, you know? And if they’ve got kids and they get divorced, then they’re really desperate for a job, you know? And so there’s a sinister kind of business self-interest that has allowed this to go on and probably promoted it in ways that we don’t completely understand, you know, that they are benefiting from this new pool of workers. Let’s put it that way.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (56:13.198)
Absolutely. That’s a huge drive. it’s very, we’ve now built a society that, that disallows stay at home moms. How are you going to only the rich can afford it? That’s why we live in Switzerland and not in Norway. We did the math. We wouldn’t be able to afford me being a stay at home mom in Norway. That’s why Switzerland is the most conservative country in Europe and it has very, very low tax rate.
So daycare is not subsidized. You get to choose where you spend your money. So that’s why we’re here.
I see. So are you a stay at home mom at this point? Motherhood is your main occupation.
Exactly. Exactly. So everything else is just trying to trying to give give back but with with everything I’ve put out there now I don’t think that I’ll ever be hired again. No, really not. I’m talking to others, censored psychologists and it’s really it’s really bad at least the way it is but anything can change in five years and maybe I do have some private
consultations here and there, just very, very, very private and very, very few far between.
Hannah Spier (57:34.348)
Yeah, I left academic teaching in 1996 to do more or less what you’re describing of making the home the top priority. I was still writing and giving speeches and things like that, but you know.
And as soon as you leave a tenured job, of course, you might as well slit your throat in academic life. You’re never going to get another job, you know. Really? oh, well. You know, like, oh, well. I’m basically unemployable. So I had to go invent my own job, you know. I’m sure you’ll be fine. I didn’t know that.
Yeah, yeah, no, I’m not but that’s that that’s the thing I went from your your your career your degrees your job That’s what forms your identity to being right to being like no, we have got the whole concept of identity wrong Back and it’s also the I see that in in female patients and they’re always talking about when I become a mother then I’ll lose my identity How do I keep my identity into motherhoods?
No, no, no, your identity is who you are to other people. Yeah, that’s your identity. And so that’s how I’ve come to now. Okay, if I work again, if I never work again, that doesn’t matter to me. That doesn’t take away from my personality in any way. But but now my big crisis is, want that fourth child. I wish I started sooner and I was 28.
And now that’s the big cry, but that’s a real crisis that not a crisis, but that’s a real question. It’s a, it’s a financial one. but, but that’s, that’s a real problem because you don’t want to be 45 and regret. I should have had that child that I actually wanted, but I didn’t. Yeah. That’s a real crisis.
Hannah Spier (59:27.054)
Yeah, and you know, of all the things that are unfair to women worldwide, if you ask women in their 20s, how many children do you want to have? And then you ask them at 45 or 50, how many children did you actually have? Around the world, around the whole Western developed world, women are having fewer children than they want. Okay, so that’s the big gap right there. To me, that explains so much about
female unhappiness, you know, that the thing that really matters, turns out we can’t get that. We got all this other stuff that’s not as important, you know, and every one of those women, you know, it’s one, it’s only one child on average. Well, population averages are huge. That’s a huge, that’s huge. And secondary infertility is very painful. Infertility is painful, secondary infertility is, there are a lot of broken hearts behind that number is what I’m trying to say, you know.
And that’s what for me the worst these these women who didn’t have who who who didn’t Yeah, who are childless and didn’t want to be childless. That’s what got me started with all of this because I realized as a psychiatrist You’re like you’re as useful as a like an open door in a submarine, you know, you’re just you’re useless There’s nothing you can do if you’re sitting there And they’re 39 There they don’t have they don’t they’re not married. How am I gonna get a kid? They want that kid
there’s that palpable pain, I really felt their pain. So other psychiatrists, have, you know, like Theodore Dahlrimpel, he has this thing with, he worked with criminals for him, it was that group of criminal youth that really got to him. But for me, it’s these women, these women that want to have kids and are have secondary infertility. Or what’s also, I found very hard is that
They start too late. have one kid. want that second and they’re not able to have that second. They have often years of hormone therapy, which is a hell in and of itself. This is not something we talk about how awful it is to go through. I sat with these women, you know, with the shots and with the blood and all of their cognitive processes go to the, their, their fertility.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (01:01:40.834)
How’s it looking now? What do I have to do today? And it’s all they can talk about in their relationships as well. So they have the marital strain in addition, because their men don’t want to hear about it anymore. They’re sick and tired of it.
Mm-hmm.
Talk about that and identity.
Yeah, really. Do you know what? I’m just going to cut this part off so we can get back to your next batch of I want to just say, that’s okay. I just want to say the Ruth Institute now has several videos. We’ve done several interviews about the whole topic of IVF and what’s wrong with it. And we’ve actually encountered a ministry, a group of people who minister to people who have used IVF and have later turned out to regret it. Not because they regret the child, but because of those frozen embryos.
those frozen embryos that they don’t know what to do with, you know, anyway, so if anybody’s concerned about that issue, we’ve got some other material on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let’s talk about let’s talk about now your third, I think it’s your third group of the where the is married, she’s married. And now she’s having a particular pattern of marital problems. Tell us about so in our
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (01:02:37.015)
Yeah, yeah
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (01:02:47.21)
Right, so women in their forties!
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (01:02:55.518)
Right. I call her Wendy. I call her Wendy and she’s in the middle of her 40s. She comes in and she’s depressed. And they’re talking about divorce at home. So they’re thus far and often has two kids in their school age, school age at that time. And the kids have
Usual problems ADHD very many of them anxieties for girls They’re on their phones She’s been working while the kids where she’s been working the whole time. So she’s a working mother and And she comes in and she’s uh, yeah, she can’t sleep. She feels hopeless
She says she’s overworked, overburdened. They don’t have sex anymore. The husband wants sex. Why don’t you want to be intimate? She, you know, she’s always has she has headaches. She has different somatic symptoms. She complains about her husband. Why doesn’t she help? why can’t he? How come he can think about intimacy when he can’t even help me? So she’s bearing a lot of resentment.
She’s giving a lot of blame on to him. And for her as well as the girl as the woman in her thirties, I’ve done everything right. Why is this happening? I’ve done everything right.
So there’s also that resentment towards society, felt from them. Why isn’t this working out? And I think if you’re listening and you have a child who has one of these issues, you know, that’s all you talk about. If you have a child who’s struggling in school, has ADHD, like what else are you really talking about in your marriage than the kids who are struggling? Very little. That’s…
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (01:04:56.238)
So I don’t think people talk enough about that, that the problems, you set yourself up. You have to make choices when you’re young that sets you up until you’re gonna live a very long life. Don’t make problems that they will come to bite you. And that’s what I tried to describe in this 40 year old patient that she was happy in her 20s, she was happy in her 30s, she got to do it all, like she got to have it all.
She played the perfect game of chess with the hours of the day. And now she’s two kids with attachment disorders. is ADHD is also that. Like we talked about. She has to struggle with them and she has psychopathology because of the guilt. I wasn’t there. This is happening. We know, we know there is such a thing as inherent knowledge and a mother knows when something would not have come to fruition were it not for something they did.
And we would, yeah, mob is a thing. We know when we should have been there.
And so that’s also because of resentment. She’s resentful towards her husband. Why didn’t you, if it were only for you? I’m just saying this is how she speaks. If he would only this, if he had only done that, if society had been more like this. And what was very interesting with her is that I would give her sick leave.
See, okay, she’s overworked, she needs to break, she needs to sleep, give her sick leave for a month, and she would get better almost instantly. She’d go home, she’d get the rest, she’d get to be there. And a lot of those things that made her feel guilty, she can solve through that, and she would come back and she would lie about her improvements. So we would have this impossible situation.
Hannah Spier (01:06:56.856)
What do mean? What do mean? Wait, what do you mean she would lie about her improvement?
because I wouldn’t be legally allowed to continue the sick leave if I knew about that she was doing so much better.
I see. I see. okay.
So because there I when I when I I don’t know it’s probably the same there when I when I hear prescribed sick leave, I would always have to negotiate I would always have to make a written statement I would always have to give a justification I would have to justify it along the way.
reason
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (01:07:44.246)
I couldn’t just say, she’s sick. She’s on sick leave for three months. And that would just be accepted. would continuously have to say she needs another two weeks because otherwise it wouldn’t be, I wouldn’t be legally allowed to just continue that for months at an end unless there was a continued threat that she needs the continued sick leave, but she would already after two weeks be sleeping better.
Right.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (01:08:13.472)
And she would always know that she couldn’t tell me because then she would have to go back to work.
This is always mother So you’re both playing this little fiction that somewhere in your psyche, you know that what she really needs is to just be home and give up the job. neither of you is really quite allowed to blurt that out. And you’re certainly not allowed to it out on the form saying why she needs sick leave. You know, I mean, you could help her write a resignation letter. that’s a whole different thing.
Back to the economics of it. They have a mortgage, they buy a house, they set themselves up to have two incomes. And even though, even if I’d get her to the realization that her job wasn’t the big identity former as she thought, and that’s that big disappointment that you are, okay, this wasn’t, this didn’t mean so much as I, why did I spend so much time on this?
when I’m having all these other problems and I’m actually quite happy being at home serving my family, than just grinding away these deadlines and no one ever says thank you anyway. Why am I doing that? So that’s a real identity crisis and that’s again with this motivational conflict. I thought my goal was over. I thought this would make me happy, but really now I’m seeing that being here for my kids,
having that they don’t there aren’t enough hours in the day.
Hannah Spier (01:09:49.559)
Right.
So when you that one hour in the evening to talk to your husband, and that hour has to go to, did you talk to the son? Did you did you do homework with him? How is it going? Then that’s going to tear this kind of that’s your intimate relationship. That’s everything. All of these, that’s what I’m saying, like people come, it’s not psychiatric disorders. It’s it’s life problems, you set yourself up to develop psychopathology later. And so much of it is resentment.
And so what can you do? What would be a successful outcome if a woman comes to you with this set of problems? How does it end well? How does it end typically?
That’s the with the last one that’s, that’s very difficult. Very few, very few times were we really able to get, um, to avoid the divorce. They’re very, they are very often, uh, end up divorcing. She then thinks, well, at least then he would be forced to do his fair share. She’s convinced she blame. Is that fair share? has.
He has to do and very often she’s sitting with divorced friends. There’s so divorce is so rampant now. So she’s getting that loyalty from her now single friends. saying come over to our side, affirm our choices. Right. Yeah. Then we’ll feel better that we made the right ones. It’s so much better when you’re divorced. Then he has the time with the kids. He’ll have to just cope because he is obviously to blame. And then you’ll have that time to yourself.
Hannah Spier (01:11:13.603)
Right.
Hannah Spier (01:11:29.038)
At least you’ll have that time to yourself. But they never forecast what the whole range of problems turns out to be. The best case scenario, divorce transfers the problems to a different arena. It doesn’t end the conflict. It just transfers it. And yeah, we talk about divorce a lot over here at the Ruth Institute. it’s amazing to me. Every once in a while, you must have a success in this.
arena, what would success look like in this scenario that you’ve drawn out here?
Yeah, sometimes we would be able to say, okay, how would it look like if you reduced? How could you make that she would realize this job wasn’t all that it was promised and that she needs more revenue? So we would frame it in a way that the job, it wasn’t her past choices that were wrong, but it was, you know, the job was too demanding. This wasn’t the right, you know,
this time. you and when when you live on two incomes very often that I saw making making making a better economic choices that is possible if you know okay we have to make we have to change how we live because these in the cities people go on vacations they have they do they have two cars they have they really set themselves up for those two it is possible to live
more frugally. So at least that she would then she would she would roll back a little bit cup back and then see. And then that would sort of stabilize it. Very often I wrote more sick leave than I wanted to then I felt was was okay. Because we just we also needed that time, right? It took a lot of time to get to those realizations. But
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (01:13:29.78)
most often it was ended in divorce. yeah, they, they would have to work out custody. And that’s a whole different like then, then you’re so for
Yeah, yes, yes. And I’ve noticed that, you know, whenever I post anything, Ruth Institute, we post different things all the time. If you post something about kids need their parents, just something as innocuous as that, kids need their parents, you can count on it. It’s like we could set a clock and say, how long will it be until a divorced woman comes on and says, well, not always, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it’s like these women are angry 10 years later, 10 years after the fact, they’re still angry, you know.
and have this sense of entitlement and that they have to defend themselves. They feel they have to defend, that we’re a problem because we’re saying kids need their parents, you know. And among the women that I know that really have had abusive problems or, you know, a mentally ill husband or, you know, husband who is, know, where there would be some understanding of why she would think it’s necessary to separate. She’s not the one who comes on and complains.
about us saying, because she knows her kids, she knows she did everything she could do, and she knows her kids are harmed, and it would be better if they, you know, if things were other than they were and stuff like that. It’s, so it’s, it’s very interesting to me to routinely see this reflexive,
resistance to the idea that a stable marriage is important, you know?
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (01:15:06.296)
And then we’ve been fed this, of course that, but that is feminism. That’s so much in society now is just there. And that’s why they’re being, it’s so much easier to keep believing the lies because we are served them. Then. And I noticed that in therapy that they were so, so willing to believe this, the next lie and the next lie, because if you have to change your whole worldview, that’s a painful process. I did that when I was in my twenties.
And it then would be sort of easier to get off the ride. Cause I still had all these, the potential, the opportunity to change where I was going. But in your forties, that’s a very different ride to get off. That’s what I’m saying. It’s like this, you know, building this sort of house of clouds, right? And the further up you climb, then it’s just that.
Paul is just gonna kill you if you climb too high. And it is just clouds, the whole career thing, the fancy degrees and the office that you want and the, I’m gonna be like, it’s all just clouds.
So let me ask you this question. We keep using the word feminism and a lot of people mean a lot of different things by the term feminism. And I want to now kind of shift our gears a little bit away from your patients and more into this realm of political philosophy and analysis of what we’re dealing with as a culture. When you use the term feminism, what do you mean?
Yeah, I mean it the way that Elizabeth Cady Stanton already in the 1800s wrote about feminism, about the women’s suffrage, that it was the men oppressed women as the pathologizing of men, the infantilization of men, this belief that in female moral superiority that you see it very clearly now how we are so ready
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (01:17:12.558)
to diagnose little boys with different neuropsychiatric disorders simply for displaying masculine behavior, simply for needing to play more in school, immediately pathologized and medicated. That is their legacy. That’s why I don’t see any difference between how they originally stated what feminism is and what we’re seeing now.
it’s a fight for women’s rights, which rights don’t I have now? Which rights don’t we have now that the men have? It’s not about them. If you counter with that, it’s about women’s rights, then they quickly say, well, no, no, it’s about opportunity. It’s about equal opportunity. So that then quickly goes from female rights to female opportunity. Women have been on the…
Women have been oppressed for so long that now they need a leg up. That’s what you hear.
And this opportunity, the definition of opportunity is what we’ve really been talking about through this whole program so far, is that the defining of opportunity in this very specific way, this economic and social kind of way, turns out not to work very well. Exactly. In a sense, that’s what we’ve been talking about all along. Yeah.
Women are suffering. Women are really suffering.
Hannah Spier (01:18:41.838)
Yeah, yes, they are, but not for the reasons that the feminists think. That’s the thing. Now, if you know, part of the reason I wanted to bring this up with you is that I’m aware of people, there are people who purport to believe in feminism, but they’ve defined it somehow differently, you know? And I often wonder, do you think they’re using this term?
Yeah, this is probably not a good question, because there’s so many different people out there who are doing this in different ways. Are there people who are using the term in good faith that you feel like you can dialogue with? Yeah, that would be open to hearing what you have to say what you know, what we’ve been talking about.
So I’m taking like best case, that’s why I started talking about opportune because I do have this conversation with a lot of women who aren’t they aren’t doing saying these things out of malice, they really do believe what they’ve been what they’ve been told. And that is then when I then ask, which which rights do we do we not have? what are these women’s rights that we’re fighting for? That’s when they’ll the ones who do say in good faith that they’re, I think I’m feminist, I think, you know, I believe in women’s rights.
All right, then we start, okay. Then they’ll say, no, it’s really about women having been kept behind. And now they need, they need extra help to be, to be further, to be at the same level as men. And these are liberal women. I’m saying that in, in, in, in urban places who are already quite privileged, but not really aware of how privileged they are.
Right.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (01:20:24.086)
right. And and and what they really what they really mean is that they want that special consideration. They don’t they’re not really for women’s rights. Because if they were in Europe, you would talk about immigration. If you were really worried about about how women are doing, you would be very worried about the rape statistics that we’re seeing in Europe. What I expect if you’re truly a feminist.
Yes. Yes.
Hannah Spier (01:20:51.31)
Right. And the condition of women in Muslim countries. Exactly. the Muslim sub-population within Europe. You know, I’ve kind of boiled it down. I’ve boiled it down to two things. want to get your opinion. Because I think I mentioned to you, I stopped using the term feminism for a while. And here’s why. Because I viewed myself, this is 20, 25 years ago by now.
that I wanted to talk to young women about what we’ve been talking about, why you should get started on your family, why you shouldn’t wait until menopause, you you should get on with it, you know, and don’t be afraid, you won’t lose your mind, it’s going to be great. That’s what I wanted to talk about. And I used to bill my speeches from time to time, I was invited to speak at law schools because I had connections with the Federalist Society and whatnot. I used to talk, humane alternatives to feminism is what I called my talk.
Well, everybody went bonkers because they’re all, what do you mean feminism isn’t humane? I’m like, well, yeah, actually it’s not. But then we’d end up talking about what feminism meant rather than talking about why you should get on with having a family. So I, at some point concluded, I want to just talk about the issues that I think are important to talk about and let somebody else worry about.
Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Mary Wollstonecraft and that. I’m not interested in that. I’m going to just talk about this. the word, but I’ve become more aware, Hannah, that ambiguity in language is part of how the totalitarian mindset works. And the reality is that the feminist movement that we are describing here, the kind of radical version of feminism, it is a totalitarian movement. And you kind of, I just don’t see how you can avoid that.
You’re trying to get into people’s head and tell them and assign new meaning to all of their feelings, you know, in order for them to get social approbation. That’s a totalitarian movement. I’m sorry. just is a war with human nature. OK. Yeah. See. And if it’s if it’s a war with human nature. That’s got to you know, that’s going to end up empowering whoever’s in power, you know, whoever’s driving that driving that ship. Yeah. So so so what I what I’ve come up with is.
Hannah Spier (01:23:11.79)
I can go along with you for quite a ways everybody, but when I come to one of these two points, then I’m gonna get off the boat. The idea that you speak for all women. Okay, number one, I categorically reject anybody’s right to speak for all women. I’m done. You talk to me like that, I’m done. Secondly, the idea that the interests of men and the interests of women are always necessarily
in conflict with each other.
Yeah, that bugs me as well. They’re the sexes against each other.
I’m done with
I’m done with that. That can’t be true.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (01:23:52.15)
And what I see with women who are suffering with patients is that they do see them, they have this weird loyalty to other single women and they’re single for a very long time. And then it becomes very difficult to make that transition that you have to make when your loyalty goes from that group of single women to loyalty to the family, to your husband.
So they’ll continue to wash their marriage laundry with their friends. They’ll continue to talk badly about the husband outside. There’s that shift. Imagine you get married first at 35 and you’ve had, you know, you’ve had that loyalty to women as a group for all those years. Then suddenly that has to shift towards the family. That becomes psychologically quite difficult.
That’s really interesting.
that puts the marriage also at risk. So we’re not seeing those healthy marriages anymore. Women bring that resentment to men into the relationships, right? So that’s why you have this Wendy that I was talking about saying again and again, well, if he would only, if it weren’t for him, well, if he would only, there’s so much bitterness there and bitterness is the killer.
That is the killer. They’re so you how you how you gonna eradicate that’s why we have to be clear feminism feminism is a pathogen this starts very very early. I give this this great if I may there’s this. So when girls are it starts when they’re very very small. I had this we’re get we’re going to pray we go every Shabbat we go to pray.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (01:25:45.142)
And so the little kids, they have to put on their best clothes. And I sit with my seven year old, my oldest is seven and we’re putting on her, her pantyhose. That’s not, it’s not a great time we have with the tight pantyhose, right? When we’re small and why do I have to wear the pantyhose? Why do I have to, why can’t I wear what he’s wearing? And I think that’s just such a situation everyone can sort of imagine and probably been in themselves.
And I realized I almost told her, well, this just, those are just female clothes. You just got to get used to it. You have to, and I heard, I heard it in my head. I almost said, well, the world is unfair to women. I didn’t. What I did because I was conscious of what I almost said, cause I had been told that all the world just is unfair to women. You just have to get used to it. Was I called over the brother and I said,
Like feel his shirt. He has to button it all the way over here. Now feel your dress. It’s soft. Do you want to wear a tie? Like we had to go through this whole thing. It’s this, but girls aren’t taught to view the world the way that the, from the, the men’s shoes, from boys shoes, what do they have to go through that? I don’t have to go through. They’re immediately told in every situation, well, that’s just how the world treats women.
Isn’t it unfair? Get used to it. just that’s such a you know, there’s such a I think this was such a powerful story for me Because I had to consciously be like no no hold up That’s not what you want to say at this moment It starts when they’re that small and it just continues and the and and the situations are more and more grave in which they then hear well That’s just how it’s always been we’ve always been oppressed. And so now they have to
they have to do their fair share. So of course marriages fail.
Hannah Spier (01:27:44.588)
Yes, yes, it’s calculated to disrupt any kind of meaningful cooperation between men and women. And cooperation is the heart of the whole thing. You can’t have any kind of civilized society without structures of cooperation. Marriage is one structure of cooperation. There are many others. But if you poison the structures of cooperation, that’s a very serious thing. And that’s exactly what you’re talking about there.
I can remember when I was a little girl, okay, so I’m gonna, full disclosure, I was born in 1953. When I was a little girl, it was okay to say, I wanna be a mommy when I grow up. But by the time I started college, was no longer okay to say that. So I lived through that kind of transition. when you really think about the…
the fact that we’re created in the divine image, you know, and that God created us male and female, both in the divine image. There’s something about the interrelation. This is from John Paul II, okay? So this is theology of the body now. There’s something that man and woman together image God in a very powerful way. Because obviously this is not a coin toss that we are male and female. God had something in his mind, you know, when he did this, right?
And so if you view your spouse in that manner, you view the men in your life in that manner, then you’re going to get more cooperation from them, I promise you, than if you’re nagging them all the time. I mean, that’s just common sense, don’t you think?
And this idea that men oppressed women, it’s so false. It’s so false. If you’ve been in a good man, this is and we also were not taught who these early feminists were. They were upper middle class, already very privileged women, exactly like the women that I’m talking to now. When I ask which rights do we not have? no, it’s not really rights. It’s about opportunities.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (01:29:55.886)
consultants, their lawyers, they’re already very privileged women who just they want the special treatment, they want the affirmative action that’s very often been in the conversations where we’re talking about affirmative action. Because as a stay at home mom, I get very angry. That’s upsets me a lot affirmative action, because I have put my husband’s career as the first priority. So we say his career is our career. I think that’s
Correct.
our family and so women are constantly promoted ahead of him who has a family to provide where he’s a sole breadwinner which women are we giving special consideration the mothers or the already very privileged single women and so these
Exactly. Yeah, and you know, from the beginning of the feminist, the modern feminist movement, however you want to describe it, I mean, I knew very early on that when they were talking about women, they didn’t mean women like me. They weren’t talking about women who had aspirations to have children and a husband who would take care of them and a stable marriage and all that. And many women have known that from the beginning. know, religious women have known that.
women whose husbands don’t have careers but who have jobs, you know, a lot of us have always understood that we didn’t count as women. I mean, Margaret Thatcher didn’t count as a woman in these people’s minds, mind you, you know. Right? She didn’t count. The most powerful woman in the UK. Nobody’s wallflower or pushover, right? know? She didn’t count as a woman. You’re like, okay, whatever, you know. So.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (01:31:34.51)
No, she didn’t count, she was a man.
Hannah Spier (01:31:41.32)
Yeah, I think I do think it would be helpful in a lot of these conversations to to point out the ambiguity in the use of the word, you know, and and if the word is giving us problems, the word aside and let’s talk about what the issues are, know.
They’ve been very good at marketing, the feminist movement. They’ve been excellent at marketing. so then they’ve, so women are, we were very concerned with being kind, with being perceived as kind because, you know, we have to worry that we don’t poison each other’s kids because we’re meant to child rear as a group. So everything, all of our relationships, we think about that. How do we child rear as a group? So that’s why there are two things that are very loyal to us and you’ll know this.
when you’ve if you’ve ever broken up a relationship with a female friend, it’s very often because they’re not loyal. Because in child really as a group, loyalty and kindness are the most important thing. Because we know we can’t just change out people willy nilly, if we’re in a group, because of attachment. So that’s why that’s so important to us. And they and now women are afraid to say they’re not feminists, because they don’t want to come across unkind. So it’s that thing.
I am a feminist. I’m a good person. They’ve done a sleight of hand. It’s very clever, but they’ve always been excellent, excellent at marketing.
And the word, this is why I’m worried about the word, you know, and I’m now paying attention to it. The word feminist is calculated to make you agree with it. I mean, it’s like, you can’t say I’m against all women. know, the implication is that if you’re a feminist, you’re in favor of women. I’m not a feminist. you’re against women. Stop, you know, that can’t be. So.
Hannah Spier (01:33:29.454)
The word itself is calculated to carry that weight. And there are lot of other phrases, if you start thinking about it, know, gender affirming care. Are you kidding me? Gender affirming care? That’s what transgender medicine is called. You can’t be against something that’s affirmative. You know, what’s wrong with you? You know, and they calculate these, they craft these words. Black lives matter. There’s another one. How are you going to argue against that? How are you going to be against that? You know, and it’s very,
cleverly done, which in my mind means I avoid those words because they’re stacked against me. They’re stacked against me, I guess, is what I, that’s my intuition about it.
in there, there’s the kind, there’s the kindness, you’re very right to bring up the transgender, a lot of a lot of women who are just, you know, normal women, we’re talking about people saying things in good faith, they were they would be afraid to touch the transgender topic, because they don’t want to come across unkind. bottomize people until 80 years ago, because we thought it was kind, we thought we’re doing them a kindness, we used to remove women’s ovaries, because
Unkind.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (01:34:39.17)
who wanted to calm them and it was kind. And I think this the same, well, I care about women and they don’t think further because we’re not told about those. As I said, if you really care about women’s wellbeing in Europe, we have to talk about the grooming gangs. We have to talk about them, but that’s not the… So then we’re in this kindness conflict.
And those women in good faith, they’ll pull out as quickly as possible because then they’re not for yeah, that’s true. That’s not because that’s just we were terrified of coming across as unkind and and cantankerous and I’m often being called cantankerous Jennifer very often because I do point these things out and I say no, listen, it’s not good for us. And this is not we should be allowed to say that some things are good and some things are bad that there is such a thing.
Bad women as bad mothers. There’s such a thing, but that’s very that’s very unkind. So that’s
And so in one sense of the word, the things you and I have been talking about, whatever label you want to put on, there’s the strain of Western individualism, it’s like individualism unhinged, egalitarianism unhinged, know, kindness without any referent to the truth. You can’t really be kind to somebody in the absence of the truth, you know, and you have to speak the truth in love. So if your husband and wife and you’re working together as a team,
You know, you, me as the mother, me as the wife may have the tendency towards being kind to the children, but dad as the husband may have the tendency towards laying down the law and here are the facts, ma’am, and nothing but the facts. Well, the truth is the family needs both.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (01:36:32.12)
There’s supposed to be the yin to our yang.
You’re supposed to be working together.
Yeah, yeah, that’s right. Always just try to handle life together. That’s how we that’s how we succeed. And I’m just trying to say, we have to build our lives based on better things, better values. We’re not dating with the right values. We’re not choosing careers or degrees with the right values. And then you’re gonna set yourself up for psychopathology later, it’s gonna come back to bite you if you don’t make the right choices.
early in life. And yes, I do warn women about taking these long degrees as I did. I don’t see that as the best choice I ever made. Now to be quite honest, it’s very difficult to do. So we just we would avoid a lot of people in psychiatry, if we taught people to make better choices based on better values.
And grounded in the truth of the human condition. That’s, I think, fine, that’s the ground zero problem here is that there are some things about human nature and the human condition that are universally true. And if you butt heads against that, if you rebel against that, if you say, want human nature to be other than it is, I want the world to be other than it is.
Hannah Spier (01:37:58.414)
That’s not going to work. Long term, that’s not going to work. I think the whole, I think Western civilization, that’s where we are right now, to my mind. That’s why we’re.
struggling to see the reality. Yeah, because that would be mean you have to change your whole worldview, which is very, again, a very psychologically painful process that even that, there are biological differences between men, we sort of know it. But you’re going to realize that at 40. And that you made all these different did all the wrong choices, you’re going to grapple with that. Or are you going to believe
another lie, the next lie, as I say, the next lie, which is, yeah, well, if it don’t work for him, it’s because society is both wrongly and you’re better off alone because of these things.
Right, right. And you’re also projecting the locus of control. See, I can talk like a psycho psychology person. The locus of control is no longer yours. You’ve blasted the locus of control out to your husband or to society at large, which you can’t control society at large. Come on. You know, if that’s what you’re waiting for, to have a happy life, you’re going to wait forever. You know, that just can’t, that makes no sense. that’s
We’re systematically doing that. Your profession’s a problem. My profession is a problem in a different way. know, economics has contributed to these things in its own way. So, you know, we’ve been talking together for an hour and a half and I’ve really enjoyed this. It’s been a total pleasure. I knew we’d have a blast. I knew it would be a lot of fun. I want to close by giving you a chance to tell people where they can find you online.
Hannah Spier (01:39:45.486)
I know you have a sub stack page and what not. Just tell people where can they find you.
Yes, please come over to my Substack. It’s a psychobabble with spear.substack.com and everything you need to know is there. You’re very welcome. We have a vibrant community there. You can subscribe. also then you get the podcast and you can speak to me directly as well. So you’re very welcome.
Hannah Spear, it has been a great pleasure spending this time with you. I’m glad we got to meet face to face in London, but this is almost as good. almost able to talk to you.
Yeah, it wasn’t a great place for having deep conversations. It was just…
No, but yeah, we’re a much more in-depth conversation here than we were able to do in that environment.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (01:40:36.408)
Very nice. Thank you so much for having me. I hope we get to talk again.
Yes, well I hope a lot of Ruthies go over to your Substack page and get acquainted with you and what you’re doing. Thank you so much for being my guest on today’s episode of The Dr. J Show. Hey, thanks for watching! Since you’re a fan of the Ruth Institute, you should really sign up for our free e-newsletter. We’ll send you free download of our report Refuting the Top 5 Gay Myths. It’s filled with our unique combination of personal stories and nerdy data. You can click
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About the Ruth Institute
The Ruth Institute is a global non-profit organization, leading an international interfaith coalition to defend the family and build a civilization of love.
Jennifer Roback Morse has a Ph.D. in economics and has taught at Yale and George Mason University. She is the author of The Sexual State and Love and Economics – It Takes a Family to Raise a Village.
To get more information or schedule an interview with Dr. Morse, contact media@ruthinstitute.org.
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