Why do some people experience same-sex attraction—and how should faithful Christians respond? In this episode of the Dr. J Show, clinical sexologist Floyd Godfrey draws on decades of experience counseling clients who experience same-sex attraction and want to live lives of chastity and integrity.
Dr. Godfrey discusses how trauma, emotional wounds, and unmet developmental needs can shape sexual desires. He explains the difference between a person’s feelings and their identity, and how healing involves both psychological insight and spiritual maturity. Rather than pushing an agenda, he walks us through how real change happens—with honesty, accountability, and deep human connection.
This conversation pushes back on the cultural narrative that says “once gay, always gay,” and raises serious questions about efforts to ban talk therapy for those who seek it. If you’re a parent, pastor, counselor, or simply someone concerned about the truth and the well-being of others, you won’t want to miss this important episode.
Subscribe to our newsletter to get this amazing report: Refuting the Top 5 Gay Myths https://ruthinstitute.org/refute-the-top-five-myths/
Have a question or a comment? Leave it in the comments, and we’ll get back to you!
00:00 – Introduction
00:07 – The Healing and Recovery Workbook
04:12 – Understanding Same-Sex Attraction and Therapy
06:42 – Navigating Therapy for Minors
14:10 – The Debate on Conversion Therapy
18:04 – Challenges with Professional Licensing
26:29 – Finding Hope Amidst Adversity
29:29 – Corruption of the Licensing Boards
40:05 – Where you can find Floyd Godfrey
41:15 – Words of Advice
Floyd Godfrey, Ph.D., is a Clinical Sexologist, Licensed Professional Counselor, and Certified Sex Addiction Specialist Supervisor with over 20 years of experience in the field of mental health and human sexuality. He holds advanced degrees from Arizona State University, Ottawa University, and the International Institute for Clinical Sexology. Dr. Godfrey specializes in working with men and adolescents navigating issues related to same-sex attraction, sexual addiction, and identity development.
He previously led a national faith-based ministry for men seeking sexual integrity, and has trained therapists, clergy, and parents in offering compassionate and ethical care. Known for integrating scientific understanding with a Christian worldview, Dr. Godfrey also works as a mental health consultant and educator. He brings both clinical depth and pastoral sensitivity to one of the most complex topics in our culture today.
Transcript
(Please note the transcript is auto-generated and likely contains errors)
Formatted Transcript: Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse & Kimberly Zember
00:00:00:14 – 00:00:27:24
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Can people change their patterns of sexual attraction and behavior? This question is becoming more contested by the day. But whatever answer you may give. The fact is that many people around the world say yes. Changing sexual attractions and behavior is possible. Hi everyone, I’m Doctor Jennifer Roback Morse founder and president of the Ruth Institute, an international interfaith coalition to defend the family and build a civilization of love.
00:00:27:27 – 00:00:57:04
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Once again. On the Doctor Today Show, we have a guest who made the journey away from an LGBT identification. Her story helps us understand that there are many pathways in, into, and many pathways out of an LGBT identity. Kimberlé Zimmer speaks internationally about the love and freedom she has found from leaving a homosexual life. She strives to be totally transparent, to help others know that they are safe, to do the same.
00:00:57:07 – 00:01:25:10
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
When Kim is not at her home in Texas, she is probably at her home away from home. Ethiopia, surrounded by her 500 plus children. I know you’re going to really enjoy this conversation.
00:01:25:12 – 00:01:28:08
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Kim Zimmer, welcome to the doctor J show.
00:01:28:10 – 00:01:30:22
Kimberly Zember
Hey, man, thank you for having me on.
00:01:30:25 – 00:01:39:20
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Well, listen, I’ve heard about you. We’ve never met before. Tell us about your personal journey, however you want to tell your story.
00:01:39:23 – 00:01:56:11
Kimberly Zember
Oh, goodness. Well, thank God there’s a book out there. So I’m going to give you just some, kind of, kind of main pieces. You know, I grew up Catholic, grew up third grade, Drake grade in private Catholic school. So I grew up knowing about God. But there’s a difference between knowing about him and experiencing him.
00:01:56:11 – 00:02:14:16
Kimberly Zember
And and so for me, I had a lot of head knowledge, but it didn’t drop down into my heart. Maybe in some ways it did. But I saw, honestly, I saw God more as a cop or like a CPA, keeping track of all of the wrongs and all the rights, and then kind of like, you know, evening em out or whatever.
00:02:14:16 – 00:02:39:03
Kimberly Zember
That might be more than a father, more than than someone who was tender towards me and desired goodness for me. I thought I kind of had to earn love. And I’m not saying it all that I was taught that that’s just how I kind of took it in. Right? Yeah. So that that’s not a great foundation, for when you grow up and and, you know, want to live for the Lord, but think it’s, like, almost too hard.
00:02:39:03 – 00:02:59:21
Kimberly Zember
And so it wasn’t till later in life that I started to realize, oh, my goodness, I don’t really have the same attractions that I feel like a lot of my friends do. And that started to pose a problem, because I knew growing up that acting on a desire to the same sex was a sin. And so I’m like, oh gosh, so I’m going to have to be a nun.
00:02:59:27 – 00:03:18:12
Kimberly Zember
Like, I had so many different things running through my little mind and heart. But it was in high school that I really started to wrestle because, you know, before then I wasn’t really dating. There was, you know, you’re you’re so young, you’re not driving. So dating didn’t even really count in my mind. But in high school, it was like, oh, no, now I kind of have to face this.
00:03:18:15 – 00:03:41:24
Kimberly Zember
I will say, and this might resonate with you. God bless my dad, I love him, I love him. So grateful for my parents. And I can also at the same time see places that they just didn’t know what they were doing. They did the best they could. But my dad, when I was young, gave me, like the sex talk and basically said, all men are dogs and they want one thing from you.
00:03:41:26 – 00:04:05:09
Kimberly Zember
And so hearing that at a young age from my dad, who I did trust, it resonated. I took things very serious as a, as a young person, even as an adult. Like when people said things, I took their word for their word. And, I do believe that that had an effect on me because I remember even in high school, I’m like being I’m attracted to these guys, like physically, but I just don’t trust them.
00:04:05:11 – 00:04:28:23
Kimberly Zember
And I didn’t know why, because I kind of forgot about my dad kind of giving me that talking to when I was younger, but I might have forgot. But my my self didn’t have that make sense? You know, there was it was somewhere. I’m not blaming my dad, for any of that, but I think the things that happened in our lives, they they all affect us whether we want to believe it or not, our upbringing, you know, nature, nurture all of it.
00:04:28:23 – 00:04:44:20
Kimberly Zember
And so, so for me, through high school, it was just hard because I’m like, okay, I’m attracted to these men, but I don’t trust them. So I don’t want to date them. Like and I really did and I did date this one guy, I think was my sophomore year in high school, and he kind of proved my dad right.
00:04:44:23 – 00:04:48:28
Kimberly Zember
We started dating for a few days. He’s like, all right, I’m ready. I’m like, for what?
00:04:48:29 – 00:04:49:27
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
You know?
00:04:49:29 – 00:05:06:27
Kimberly Zember
And, so I was like, okay, you know what? We’re going to stick with being friends. And that’s really how I was with men kind of the rest of my life. You know, for years on was just keeping men close, but is like brothers and his friends. I had two older brothers growing up. I had no sisters.
00:05:06:29 – 00:05:28:24
Kimberly Zember
And so it was kind of quote unquote, natural to have men around me and have them be kind of like brothers, or close friends. So I had tons of guys in my life, but I just didn’t trust them outside of the relationship of friendship. And that being said, it was difficult for me because now my senior year in high school, I’m like, okay, everybody’s dating, right?
00:05:28:24 – 00:05:47:07
Kimberly Zember
Everybody’s got someone to some degree. And here I am single. And you know, I wasn’t half bad looking. So it’s like, why aren’t you dating? And I didn’t even fully know, but I was more drawn to women. I had a connection with women. And it was my senior year in high school that I was like, you know what?
00:05:47:09 – 00:06:12:22
Kimberly Zember
One of my friends is pregnant. Good amount of my friends are getting drunk and doing drugs. What’s the big deal if I kiss my best friend? That’s a girl like, you know? And keep in mind, this is important. What I said earlier, I had the image of God as kind of a cop or a CPA, so I’m like, I don’t know about you, but in California, when I’m driving on the freeway and there’s a cop near, I’m like, I just have to speed less than the person next to me.
00:06:12:22 – 00:06:32:05
Kimberly Zember
So if there’s somebody going, like if the speed limit is 70, but the guy next to me is driving 80, I can go 75, right? Like I’m fine because he’s going to go get him. And so I that’s how I was calculating my life. I’m like, okay, my friend’s pregnant, right? They’re not married. My other friends are drunk.
00:06:32:05 – 00:06:58:01
Kimberly Zember
My other friends are high. My kissing my best friend who mutually seems like she wants this too. That’s like under the radar of all of them. And that is such a twisted way, right? Like that is so not the God, the father’s heart for us. But that’s just what I had an understanding of. And so I made a decision my senior year to act on something that I had been kind of thinking about for years.
00:06:58:03 – 00:07:23:25
Kimberly Zember
And, I would say if someone stopped me when I was a senior in high school and said, Kim, if you do this, it’s going to change your whole life. I would’ve been like, are you kidding me? No. What is one kiss going to do right? Well, it did change almost everything for me. When that happened my senior year, when I made that decision and acted on these desires, I felt I began to see women differently.
00:07:23:27 – 00:07:40:13
Kimberly Zember
It wasn’t purely sexualized. It was anything. But. I was like, wait, it’s more than it can be. More than friendship. Like, we can have this deep friendship that we already had, and then we can get even closer, through these physical things. And so that led on for years.
00:07:40:16 – 00:07:59:04
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
May I ask what year this was that you were a senior in high school because things have changed so rapidly, particularly in California. That even a five year difference in age might have made a big difference in terms of what your social environment was like. So what what year was this that you, your first year?
00:07:59:07 – 00:08:02:13
Kimberly Zember
Are you trying to ask how old am I?
00:08:02:16 – 00:08:06:21
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
I’ll go first. I was born in 1953. I’m older than you, so get over that.
00:08:06:21 – 00:08:08:23
Kimberly Zember
Okay.
00:08:08:25 – 00:08:09:28
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Seriously.
00:08:10:01 – 00:08:12:04
Kimberly Zember
It was in 2002.
00:08:12:06 – 00:08:31:01
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
2002. You were a senior in high school. And so your image of the, What I’m doing is not as bad as what they’re doing, so it’s. I’ll get away with it or surely God will overlook this. You know, that kind of mentality. That’s I think that’s pretty easy to understand in that, in that whole environment. So anyway, continue.
00:08:31:01 – 00:08:46:20
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
You were starting to say that that one decision changed much more than you expected. I think this is a very interesting point that people should ponder, right? You know that what you thought it was little turned out to be massive. Tell us about that.
00:08:46:23 – 00:09:10:09
Kimberly Zember
Yeah, I think it was a seed. Right. And it was a seed that I now watered. The seed was there. The desire or the thought? But then I watered and I took action and, it began to grow a lot, a lot more than I would have ever imagined. I will say that physical now, physically intimate connection with my who I would consider one of my best friends.
00:09:10:09 – 00:09:35:27
Kimberly Zember
It was a female. It it really did ruin our friendship. We brought confusion. I wanted more. She was like, no, we’re just friends. This shouldn’t have happened. It just messed everything up. I didn’t see her the same ever since, you know? Now, closeness needed to look physical for me, and it wasn’t. Now I want to be clear, it wasn’t sexualized, but it was like I wanted a physical closeness with her.
00:09:35:29 – 00:10:03:04
Kimberly Zember
Probably beyond what a friendship would look like. Right. And so it wasn’t just sexually driven as, as maybe some might experience. That was not the case for me. It turned into that over the course of years. But I will say this, I, I hid I did not tell anyone, I knew what I was doing was not right, but I didn’t feel like I had anybody that I could go to that would walk with me through it.
00:10:03:04 – 00:10:21:07
Kimberly Zember
I had many people around me that I felt like if I told them what I was doing would be like, that’s wrong. You need to go to confession and like, stop doing that, right? Like, I already know that. But how do I live that? How do I and how do I replace what I’m filling myself with with something good?
00:10:21:07 – 00:10:33:19
Kimberly Zember
And if you just tell me to replace myself with this person, with Jesus, I’m going to be like, no, thank you. You know what I mean? Like, my image of God was even off. So for me, that wasn’t it.
00:10:33:21 – 00:10:42:05
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
So that wasn’t the idea that Jesus could rescue you from that in some way. That wasn’t really a live possibility in your thought process. Yeah, I.
00:10:42:07 – 00:10:48:15
Kimberly Zember
Really wanted to because I’m like, great. So now I live yoked to a cop, like, okay. Yes.
00:10:48:19 – 00:10:49:19
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Right, right, right, right.
00:10:49:20 – 00:11:06:27
Kimberly Zember
Yeah. I didn’t sound peaceful. That didn’t it sounded it was already hard enough to try to stay within the bounds of like what I thought if I, if I didn’t do these things, he wasn’t going to love me. So that was already hard enough. Now thinking like, oh, I’m going to give my life to Jesus, that like, this was already hard enough.
00:11:06:27 – 00:11:30:05
Kimberly Zember
Like I was already feeling the weight and the pressure. I had no idea what it meant to truly give your life to Jesus. And I know because I see I knew his rules, but I didn’t know his heart. And if you know someone’s rules but you don’t know their heart, I honestly would say you don’t even know his rules because you don’t know from which the heart in which those birthed from and so direct.
00:11:30:07 – 00:11:30:28
Kimberly Zember
You know.
00:11:31:00 – 00:11:50:06
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
That’s a really important point. Your dad was not trying to mess with you when he said to you what he said to you, but you heard the don’t don’t trust men. And you now as an adult, you can see he was trying to protect you and you can see his heart and all of that. And and same with Jesus and the rules.
00:11:50:06 – 00:12:06:20
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
At least in the Catholic Church, you learned correct rules so that that was something, because that’s not always the case in a lot of churches these days. You know, you might have churches telling you to go ahead and act on it and be your true self and all that. So but still, like the connection between the head and the heart, let’s continue with your story.
00:12:06:23 – 00:12:14:14
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
How deeply did you get into a lesbian identity? Would you would you say you ever embraced that fully as an identity?
00:12:14:17 – 00:12:31:09
Kimberly Zember
So that’s where I’m a little bit different. I went deep into the lifestyle. I did not ever own the identity. You know, I hid for years. And like I said, you know, there’s a book out there that gives all the details is kind of a memoir. And, and it just helps to kind of see the journey.
00:12:31:15 – 00:12:46:22
Kimberly Zember
So I’m gonna I’m gonna skip past a lot of that, but I hid for years. Okay. Now, when I actually. I mean, there’s a lot here, but but just for the sake of time, I ended up marrying a man because I thought, okay, well, I’m. I’m not going to end up with a woman. I’m not going to marry a woman.
00:12:46:22 – 00:13:05:24
Kimberly Zember
And I want a long lasting relationship. I want one person for the rest of my life. I don’t want just a girlfriend and then another girlfriend and this and that. And I didn’t think there were certain, though. People would look at my life. And when people read the book, they’re like, wait, you drew some boundaries? I was like, I know I didn’t have a lot of boundaries, but sometimes I was like, nope, I’m not crossing that one.
00:13:06:00 – 00:13:21:26
Kimberly Zember
I remember I was dating a girl and she said, oh, I, I can’t wait to have children with you. I was like, no, that’s never going to happen. And she’s like, well, I mean, you know, after we get married, I’m like, oh, we’re not going to get married either. Like marriage is for a male and a female. And she’s like, what are you doing?
00:13:22:04 – 00:13:39:00
Kimberly Zember
And I’m like, yeah. And so it was hard because I did have some of these boundaries that I was like, no, that I’m not going to cross. And so it was a wrestle always within. I think it’s important to know, to, at 17, I think I was 18, I was 18. And so, you know, I had this experience of the girl, I’m no longer with her.
00:13:39:00 – 00:13:56:04
Kimberly Zember
That friendship falls apart. And so I go on to another one and one that’s like, no, I want to date you. But I’m like, okay, but I don’t want to do that openly. So everything was secretive. But I did go to my priest and I was like, hey, this is what I’m dealing with. And you can’t tell my parents because I don’t want them to know, but I need help.
00:13:56:07 – 00:14:16:18
Kimberly Zember
And so he suggested a Catholic counselor for me. Now, keep in mind is about 20, probably 2003 at the time. So we’re not hearing about conversion therapy. We’re not hearing none of this. There’s no talk really around the LGBT community. It was not it was not necessarily on TV as much. It was not seen as a positive thing.
00:14:16:24 – 00:14:41:05
Kimberly Zember
So I go into counseling and, went to many sessions with him without my parents knowing. I paid for it myself. And basically got the message, this is as I received it, you’re gay and God doesn’t make mistakes. You do. You. Before this was all on bumper stickers and love is love. God is love and he loves who you love.
00:14:41:07 – 00:14:59:11
Kimberly Zember
And all this like, it sounded all sweet and like comforting. But in my heart I’m like, but why does the scripture say, you know? And he’s like, well, you don’t really understand scripture. I was like, okay, you’re right, I don’t. But like, it’s pretty plain, it’s pretty clear, you know?
00:14:59:12 – 00:15:06:04
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
So so this is the therapist that the priest recommended it. He realized that this is who he was sending you to.
00:15:06:07 – 00:15:22:21
Kimberly Zember
Well, come to find out, that priest, when I went back to him later, he was hopeful that the church would eventually change, not marriage, but that they would be more progressive and bless unions. Yeah, that’s.
00:15:22:27 – 00:15:25:24
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Like whoa whoa whoa whoa. Oh, yeah.
00:15:25:26 – 00:15:38:03
Kimberly Zember
Here I am, someone who has these desires, who wanted that. But I only wanted it if it was true. Not just because I. I had this inner wrestle the entire.
00:15:38:05 – 00:15:44:06
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Hold on. Stop, stop, stop. I gotta I gotta process this because it was this in San Diego.
00:15:44:08 – 00:15:45:04
Kimberly Zember
Yeah.
00:15:45:06 – 00:15:48:04
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yeah. So I was living in San Diego in 2003.
00:15:48:11 – 00:15:49:28
Kimberly Zember
I didn’t come.
00:15:50:00 – 00:16:10:18
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
No, no, but I wasn’t doing this type of stuff. I was I was being a foster mom at that time, you know, I was I was away from academic life. I was full time mom. We had, you know, we had we had our two kids, plus our foster kid and prop eight hit the scene in 2008, and that was like a whole new like I had already been writing about the family and studying.
00:16:10:18 – 00:16:34:16
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
The family had already written some books and all that, but gay marriage was like, not on the horizon. But even what I’m trying to wrap my head around is that even in 2003, the fact that we have closeted gay priests in the Catholic Church was causing problems. Okay, and I’m not saying this particular guy was closeted, but that attitude that was a big I stumbled over it in prop eight, right?
00:16:34:16 – 00:17:07:13
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Because we always had trouble getting the clergy to support what we were doing. The deacons would help. Bishop Corleone was great. You know, a lot of laypeople were great, but there was a there were a lot of the clergy. I’m not saying all, but a lot of the clergy there was resistance. Right. And so here you are as a young, very young person, on the receiving, you were on the receiving end of the same sort of thing that I was on the receiving end of, you know, like some parishes, they wouldn’t let us collect signatures to get it on the ballot, stuff like that, you know, right.
00:17:07:16 – 00:17:28:17
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And so that’s, that’s what, 4 or 5 years later from where you are. So but anyway, this is just, just helping both of us because I’m, I’m learning this from you now and putting the pieces together. Right, that this is what we’re dealing with as a culture in, in, in the California very, very pro gay mentality, even in 2003.
00:17:28:17 – 00:17:51:11
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
So but let’s get back to your story now. I’ve had a chance to process this and, you know, the oh, the other thing that came to my mind when you said that when the prop eight thing happened, I was approached by a guy who was in charge of the who? The. There’s a big professional association of, the California Association of Marriage and Family Council or something like that.
00:17:51:11 – 00:18:12:18
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
I forget exactly what its name was. And this was a devout Catholic man who happened to be president of it. And he reached out to me to say, you know, Doctor Moore, you should know that this association wants to create a statement where they will go on record as being opposed to man, woman, marriage, that they will go on record opposing proposition eight.
00:18:12:23 – 00:18:34:25
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And he’s like, you know, oh my gosh, help me. What do I say to them to talk them out of it? And so on and so forth. And he was becoming aware that that whole profession by 2008 was completely dominated, have been completely, you know, infiltrated is not quite the right word, but but captured ideal logically captured by the pro LGBT forces.
00:18:35:00 – 00:19:00:19
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And so there you were. What I this is why I brought this up. This not just for me going down memory lane, but it’s taken me a while to get specific here. The that the consequence of them, going wobbly on this issue of that the consequence of this profession being captured meant that you, as a 19 year old or a 20 year old could not get the counseling that you wanted because you already knew what you, you know.
00:19:00:27 – 00:19:18:22
Kimberly Zember
Counseling. I just wanted to live in the lifestyle, just living the lifestyle. So, you know, for me, I chose a Catholic counselor. I went to a Catholic priest because I knew to some degree, like, I might be just getting whatever somebody thinks. If I go outside of the Catholic Church, I wasn’t scared. Was like, oh, it’s not Catholic, so I can go.
00:19:18:22 – 00:19:40:15
Kimberly Zember
It was like, no, I’m seeking truth. And so when a priest and then the priest suggest me to a Catholic counselor, I’m like, okay, I’m going to at least get truth, right? And that’s not what I got. What I will say is that I can’t judge the counselors hard, right? I don’t know what was going on. I want to I want to believe, and I’m choosing to believe and I forgive them.
00:19:40:15 – 00:20:04:06
Kimberly Zember
And it’s to the Lord to bring justice. And, you know, but for me, I want to choose to believe that they were so filled with compassion for me that they didn’t want me to hurt and suffer. Yes, but that’s not the Christian life. And so when we separate compassion from truth, we don’t have compassion. When we separate these two things, they’re they don’t stand alone.
00:20:04:06 – 00:20:10:14
Kimberly Zember
They’re they’re meant to be together. They’re one nature, right? Truth is passion. And so to me.
00:20:10:16 – 00:20:29:28
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And Kimmy, Kimmy, it’s not just that. It’s not the Christian life. It’s not an authentically human life. If you’re separated from truth, you know that that our desire, our understanding of the human person and maybe this is what makes us different is as Catholics, as Christians, you’re that part of the Christian ethos is that the human person is meant to seek truth.
00:20:30:00 – 00:20:41:19
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
That’s what it means to be human. Whereas I think the modern world has a different view of what it means to be human, which is to seek pleasure and and be comfortable, you know, and that those two, it doesn’t work.
00:20:41:26 – 00:21:00:06
Kimberly Zember
And you just clear up. When I said to be Christian, I meant to suffer. There is suffering in this life. I believe every human being is going to suffer in one way or another. But I think most human beings, as human beings, we try to avoid suffering. Right. And so I believe I’m hopeful that the priest and the counselor were like, oh, this poor girl.
00:21:00:06 – 00:21:21:07
Kimberly Zember
Like she’s too young, like, this is too heavy, you know, and and so but again, God’s grace, his mercy is greater than anything. And so that would have been an opportunity for me to get to learn the heart of God, to get to learn who he is, that he wants to help me, that he’s going to be people to walk with me, to love me well, that it’s not just about marriage in this life.
00:21:21:07 – 00:21:39:22
Kimberly Zember
And there’s so much that could have been unpacked at that young age if people were willing to walk with me, be be honest with me while loving me. Right. Love me as a person. You know, all this. And so it was just kind of trying to be affirmed that you’re gay and and even when he said that, I’m like, no, I’m not like, yes, I have these attractions.
00:21:39:22 – 00:22:02:12
Kimberly Zember
So you asked me a question and our words matter, right? I love you and I hate you. Only one word changed, but everything in its meaning changes, right? And so words matter. So for me, when you said, you know, did you take on this lesbian identity, this, this gay identity, I, by the grace of God, I never did, even when I came and was like open about all of this my life.
00:22:02:15 – 00:22:21:07
Kimberly Zember
And okay, I really actually have an attraction to women. I’ve been secretly dating women, you know, all this stuff. I never I remember this one time and I think this is important to note. I had introduced my girlfriend to one of my best friends, and my best friend looked at me. She goes, oh my gosh, Kim, I’m so glad that you finally came out as gay.
00:22:21:07 – 00:22:44:04
Kimberly Zember
And I’m like, no, I’m not gay. She’s like, And then my girlfriend’s like, wait, what? You know, I’m like, man, I was like, I’m not gay. And she’s like, we’re dating. And I was like, yeah, I know I just introduced you like I’m aware of that. And my friend, my friends, like, then why are you not saying you’re gay and see my girlfriend, as well as my best friend knew that I was not afraid of labels.
00:22:44:04 – 00:23:02:26
Kimberly Zember
I was not afraid of what people might think. I might have had a fear of God, but I wasn’t afraid of man. So I wasn’t like, I mean, I was a pretty rogue person anyway, so it wasn’t like, oh, I just didn’t want to be labeled as gay. No, I didn’t want a label that wasn’t true. Right? I said, you know, I have a mission in Ethiopia.
00:23:02:26 – 00:23:19:29
Kimberly Zember
And I did 23 travel to Ethiopia back and forth, started a nonprofit that I didn’t mean to, and God was just working. Even in the midst of my confusion and all my mess. But I remember people, you know, if somebody if I came back from years in Ethiopia and said, oh, you’re Ethiopian, I’d be like, no, no, I’m not Ethiopian.
00:23:20:04 – 00:23:39:12
Kimberly Zember
Right? And so it was really just this inner struggle of, I’m doing this thing. Yes, the action is true. I’m acting on it, but it doesn’t make me who I am. And so I had something within me. I believe it was the grace of God that says, okay, you’re doing these things, but just because you’re doing these things doesn’t mean that makes you who you are.
00:23:39:12 – 00:23:57:23
Kimberly Zember
And listen, I didn’t know I never did that. You know, saliva test that you send in and it tells you, you know, what your nationality is and all your percentages. You’re Italian, you’re German, you’re whatever. But I knew I wasn’t African American, right? So, like, I didn’t need to know what I was to not know what I wasn’t.
00:23:57:23 – 00:24:14:29
Kimberly Zember
And so for me, there was something inside saying, you’re more than this. Yes. This is, you know, yes, this is real. Yes. You want to act on it? Yes. You have acted on it. Yes. You’re embracing those actions, but you are more. And so I just couldn’t do this. But I’ll see this. So I didn’t take on the lesbian identity.
00:24:14:29 – 00:24:32:05
Kimberly Zember
I didn’t take on a gay identity. I didn’t go to pride. It was not something I was proud of. I’m just being honest. I wasn’t proud of it. I was living in it, I felt it, I acted on it, but I was not proud of it. And I will say this when I moved to Ethiopia and I started a mission and I came back to San Diego, everybody try to call me a missionary.
00:24:32:11 – 00:24:47:25
Kimberly Zember
They’re like, oh, you’re the missionary. I’m like, no. And they’re like, you live in Ethiopia. I’m like, yes. And they’re like, you have a mission there. I’m like, yes. And then they’re like, then you’re a missionary. No, no, no, I’m not. And they’re like, what do you mean? And I was like, well, I mean, I’m doing that. Yes, I have a mission there.
00:24:47:27 – 00:25:05:29
Kimberly Zember
But but that’s not who I am, right. And so I could never describe who I was. I just could say, no, I’m not that. Even if I was doing those things, I sold real estate in San Diego. People are like, oh, you’re the realtor. I’m like, no, I sell houses. And so that wasn’t just the gay identity that I had me down.
00:25:06:03 – 00:25:13:21
Kimberly Zember
I was turning down, by the grace of God, any identity that would be rooted in what I’ve done. See?
00:25:13:22 – 00:25:17:20
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Oh, no, I get you, I hear you. Yeah, I do.
00:25:17:22 – 00:25:40:07
Kimberly Zember
Know that my identity was bought. I didn’t know that I was a beloved daughter. I didn’t know that what Jesus did on the cross. But my identity, that he paid for me to be a daughter. Right. And I didn’t earn that. I can receive it or I can reject it. And so I believe it was the grace of God that’s like, hold on who you are.
00:25:40:10 – 00:25:55:26
Kimberly Zember
I’m going to protect that. You’re going to try all these other things, you’re going to do all of these, you’re going to jump in to a lot. But I’m going to hold that place of who you actually are because you’re mine. And nothing can triumph over that unless we let it. Right. And but I didn’t know who I was.
00:25:55:26 – 00:26:05:06
Kimberly Zember
I didn’t know whose I was right. Thankfully, I didn’t sell out to missionary or realtor or lesbian.
00:26:05:08 – 00:26:14:18
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
That’s really powerful. An important point. You mentioned that you got married in this whole process here. Just give us a quick timeline because I’m getting confused.
00:26:14:20 – 00:26:38:20
Kimberly Zember
So I let’s see. 2002 graduated high school, on and off, dating women behind the scenes, trying to date men just so that people don’t ask me questions like, I have these, like, boyfriends, but I’m like, really? I don’t want to be with them because I don’t trust them. And then, I would say it was I was about 23, I think, when I got married, and I had told the man everything.
00:26:38:22 – 00:26:54:13
Kimberly Zember
I’m like, you know, this is the stuff I was doing. And he’s like, what, are you, gay? I’m like, no, you know? And he’s like, well, are you sure? Because that’s like a lot of women. And I’m like, yeah, no, I’m not. I was like, but I do enjoy it. And I do love women, but like, I’m not going to end up with one.
00:26:54:19 – 00:27:19:07
Kimberly Zember
And so the state in which I got married was a fear based one. I got married because I was afraid of being alone. I was afraid that if I didn’t get married, I’d either become a nun or I’d be alone all my life. And both sounded terrifying to me. I surely didn’t want to be a religious sister. And I did not want to be just walking through the earth by myself and and to be honest, that was even God speaking.
00:27:19:07 – 00:27:38:27
Kimberly Zember
Because when he was in the garden with Adam, he was with Adam, and he said, it’s not good that man be alone. Right? And so that was resounding in my heart. But I didn’t have the voice of God speaking to me. All I had was Satan saying, you’re going to be alone your whole life. You’ve got to be, you know, and fear driven by fear.
00:27:39:04 – 00:27:48:17
Kimberly Zember
And so I made the decision. I’m not giving myself an excuse. It’s just a reality. I made the decision to get married because I was too afraid of being alone. And I don’t think I’m the only one in the world that’s done that. And so.
00:27:48:17 – 00:27:50:20
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
It did. No kidding. Yeah. No kidding.
00:27:50:22 – 00:28:12:16
Kimberly Zember
Yeah, yeah. It didn’t work out. I don’t I hate I hate the ways and the decisions that I’ve made. And I love that. God there’s nothing outside of his forgiveness and his grace. But it still hurts people, myself and others I’ve heard. But I lasted, about a year being married. I remember the night I got married, I got on my knees and I didn’t have much.
00:28:12:16 – 00:28:30:06
Kimberly Zember
I would always chat with God. By the way, this is important to note to all through my wanderings, all through my things. I never stopped going to church. I was in confession a lot, but I never stopped going to church. I wanted God, I did. There was something still in me, I believe is the grace of God. We get dipped into the waters of baptism and then it’s our choice whether or not we believe.
00:28:30:08 – 00:28:48:28
Kimberly Zember
And I believe the graces of baptism have been operating in my life since since the day it happened. And but it’s always a choice, always free will. And and so I was wrestling my entire life and, and I remember I got on my knees and I said, God, I promise you, this shows you what my relationship was with God was like I said, God, I promise you.
00:28:49:05 – 00:29:08:06
Kimberly Zember
I said, Mark my words, I will never cheat on this man with a woman. That is probably the strangest wedding prayer God might think he might have ever heard. But see, I didn’t say, Jesus, I need your help. Holy Spirit, right? And strengthen me. Help me to be honest and real before I even do this. Like none of that.
00:29:08:06 – 00:29:27:06
Kimberly Zember
It was my strength. I thought my whole life I had to do things. I had to do it right. I had to not sin. I had to have strength. It was all on my shoulders and it was heavy and it was a lot and it was crumbling. And that is not blaming anyone. It’s just the way that I was experiencing God and life.
00:29:27:09 – 00:29:33:04
Kimberly Zember
And I buckled. Within a year of marriage. I cheated on with a woman. I’m married. Oh, wow.
00:29:33:07 – 00:29:35:00
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Oh. Wow. Wow.
00:29:35:02 – 00:29:54:09
Kimberly Zember
Yeah. And it led to, Hence why there’s a book. There’s a lot of turns in this, this life, that I’ve lived. And, I love him dearly. We were never meant to be married. We ended up getting an annulment. He actually want to go through process. I was like, God, I don’t deserve anything.
00:29:54:14 – 00:30:17:20
Kimberly Zember
Thanks. But he might. And so, you know, whatever I need to do. And I was honest in the paperwork and all this stuff and. And so that we were granted an annulment. He ended up getting remarried, married to a wonderful Catholic woman. And I hear that he’s doing great. And that just blesses my heart. I wish I could give back to him all that I had taken.
00:30:17:23 – 00:30:21:22
Kimberly Zember
But God does. He restores in ways that I never could.
00:30:21:24 – 00:30:30:25
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
So what? So. So there you were, married for less than a year. Divorce annulled. And then what happened?
👉 Watch the full uncensored video on Rumble or on Locals
Know someone who needs to hear this? Share this post. The truth heals.
Have a question or a comment? Leave it in the comments, and we’ll get back to you!
Subscribe to our YouTube playlist: @RuthInstitute
Follow us on Social Media:
https://www.instagram.com/theruthinstitute
https://www.facebook.com/TheRuthInstitute
https://theruthinstitute.locals.com/newsfeed
Press:
NC Register: https://www.ncregister.com/author/jennifer-roback-morse
Catholic Answers: https://www.catholic.com/profile/jennifer-roback-morse
The Stream: https://stream.org/author/jennifer-roback-morse/
Crisis Magazine: https://crisismagazine.com/author/jennifer-roeback-morse
Father Sullins’ Reports on Clergy Sexual Abuse: https://ruthinstitute.org/resource-centers/father-sullins-research/
Buy Dr. Morse’s Books:
The Sexual State: https://ruthinstitute.org/product/the-sexual-state-2/
Love and Economics: https://ruthinstitute.org/product/love-and-economics-it-takes-a-family-to-raise-a-village/
Smart Sex: https://ruthinstitute.org/product/smart-sex-finding-life-long-love-in-a-hook-up-world/
101 Tips for a Happier Marriage: https://ruthinstitute.org/product/101-tips-for-a-happier-marriage/
101 Tips for Marrying the Right Person: https://ruthinstitute.org/product/101-tips-for-marrying-the-right-person/
Listen to our podcast:
Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-ruth-institute-podcast/id309797947
Spotify – https://open.spotify.com/show/1t7mWLRHjrCqNjsbH7zXv1
Subscribe to our newsletter to get this amazing report: Refute the Top 5 Gay Myths https://ruthinstitute.org/refute-the-top-five-myths/
Get the full interview by joining us for exclusive, uncensored content on Locals: https://theruthinstitute.locals.com/support
About the Ruth Institute
The Ruth Institute is a global non-profit organization, leading an international interfaith coalition to defend the family and build a civilization of love.
Jennifer Roback Morse has a Ph.D. in economics and has taught at Yale and George Mason University. She is the author of The Sexual State and Love and Economics – It Takes a Family to Raise a Village.
To get more information or schedule an interview with Dr. Morse, contact media@ruthinstitute.org.
Refute the top 5 Gay Myths With Our Ebook & Get Our Newsletter
Join us on Locals for exclusive content*!
*Censorship free!
Get all of our video content on Rumble*
*Also censorship free
