From Pain to Peace

Jenny duBay on the Dr. J Show ep. 291 Part 2

Subscribe to our newsletter to get this amazing report: Refuting the Top 5 Gay Myths https://ruthinstitute.org/refute-the-top-five-myths/

Continuing the discussion, Catholic trauma-informed life coach Jenny duBay shares her personal journey as a survivor of domestic violence and how her faith played a central role in her healing. She discusses the importance of trauma-informed care within the Church and offers insights into how Catholic communities can better support survivors. This conversation highlights the intersection of faith, psychology, and recovery, offering hope and practical guidance for those affected by abuse.

Jenny duBay is a domestic abuse survivor, Catholic advocate, author, and trauma-informed life coach. She is the founder of Create Soul Space, a ministry and blog dedicated to cultivating awareness of domestic violence within a Catholic context. A certified Deconstructing Gaslighting Specialist (C-DGS) and narcissistic abuse specialist, Jenny also holds a Bachelor’s degree in Catholic theology from CDU. She facilitates a domestic violence support group at Hope’s Garden and partners with organizations such as Catholics for Family Peace to support survivors. Her mission is to walk with women through the journey of healing from abuse and betrayal trauma. Jenny is also the voice behind the Prodigal Parishioner blog and contributes regularly to a variety of Catholic publications, including the Catholic Education Resource Center, Missio Dei, and the National Catholic Register, where her work has been recognized among the “Best of Catholic Blogging.”

Links:
Jenny’s website: https://www.jennydubay.com/
Hope’s Garden – https://hopesgarden.com/
Her X profile: https://x.com/createsoulspace?lang=en
https://linktr.ee/jdubay
Her substack: https://www.createsoulspace.org/
Men’s group: https://men-of-hope.mn.co/landing

Social Media:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jenny.dubay/
https://www.instagram.com/create_soul_space/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jennydubay/

Buy a copy of her book: https://www.createsoulspace.net/store/c2/shop#/

Missio Dei Catholic:
YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@missiodeicatholic
Website: https://www.youtube.com/@missiodeicatholic

Jenny’s social media appearances:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GCnblWfTjU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B_y7DS28nQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMYJLV0nQSY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfwvU9anBSo

00:00 – Recognizing the Reality of Abuse
08:10 – The Process of Release and Acceptance
12:08 – Understanding Abuser Types
17:05 – The Cycle of Abuse and Change
25:21 –Misinterpretation of Biblical Teachings
37:13 – Creating a Safety Plan for Leaving
40:31 – Resources for Healing and Support

Have a question or a comment? Leave it in the comments, and we’ll get back to you!

Watch the full episode, uncensored, on Rumble: https://rumble.com/user/Theruthinstitute

Subscribe to our YouTube playlist: @RuthInstitute
Follow us on Social Media:
https://www.instagram.com/theruthinstitute
https://twitter.com/RuthInstitute
https://www.facebook.com/TheRuthInstitute/
https://theruthinstitute.locals.com/newsfeed

Press:
NC Register: https://www.ncregister.com/author/jennifer-roback-morse
Catholic Answers: https://www.catholic.com/profile/jennifer-roback-morse
The Stream: https://stream.org/author/jennifer-roback-morse/
Crisis Magazine: https://crisismagazine.com/author/jennifer-roeback-morse

Father Sullins’ Reports on Clergy Sexual Abuse: https://ruthinstitute.org/resource-centers/father-sullins-research/

Buy Dr. Morse’s Books:
The Sexual State: https://ruthinstitute.org/product/the-sexual-state-2/
Love and Economics: https://ruthinstitute.org/product/love-and-economics-it-takes-a-family-to-raise-a-village/
Smart Sex: https://ruthinstitute.org/product/smart-sex-finding-life-long-love-in-a-hook-up-world/
101 Tips for a Happier Marriage: https://ruthinstitute.org/product/101-tips-for-a-happier-marriage/
101 Tips for Marrying the Right Person: https://ruthinstitute.org/product/101-tips-for-marrying-the-right-person/

Listen to our podcast:
Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-ruth-institute-podcast/id309797947
Spotify – https://open.spotify.com/show/1t7mWLRHjrCqNjsbH7zXv1

Subscribe to our newsletter to get this amazing report: Refuting the Top 5 Gay Myths https://ruthinstitute.org/refute-the-top-five-myths/

Get the full interview by joining us for exclusive, uncensored content on Locals: https://theruthinstitute.locals.com/support

Transcript

(Please note the transcript is auto-generated and likely contains errors)

00;00;00;00 – 00;00;29;20
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
So that’s where it starts. Okay. And then this. So they’re recognizing that there is a pattern. It’s not just that you had a quarrel and you said something mean or he said something mean. It’s it that’s not abuse okay. Let’s be real clear. Just because somebody does something you don’t like that doesn’t make it abuse. We’re talking about a longstanding pattern of of this type of behavior that is there’s a narcissistic component to it a lot of times, not always because you got you have your different types, y’all.

00;00;29;20 – 00;00;44;05
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
She has four different types of abusers in here. So you can go and look at that as well. But so so you’ve gotten to the point where you’re saying, yeah okay, there’s a pattern here. This pattern is destructive. Let’s don’t even label. It is abuse. Let’s not even think of it. That way. Just say this is a destructive pattern.

00;00;44;08 – 00;00;58;12
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
What am I going to do about it okay. And so how do you use that next step in the discernment process. What first you asked, you asked the Lord what are you at? Okay. Let’s say you’re at that stage. What do you ask the Lord for when you say help, what do you say?

00;00;58;15 – 00;01;10;15
Jenny duBay
How do a lot, a lot at the very, very beginning. It’s the eyes to see. It’s that clarity. Is that knowledge of like that to be able to know truly what is going on?

00;01;10;17 – 00;01;12;16
Speaker 3
Yes. Yes.

00;01;12;18 – 00;01;33;04
Jenny duBay
And and also to be able to admit it because that is so, so hard. We tend people in abusive relationships really minimize. And they also don’t want to admit that it’s true because they love their partner. You know, there’s not like, oh, I’m being abused, I hate it. I have never met a woman in an abusive relationship who wanted a divorce, had a divorce?

00;01;33;04 – 00;01;55;22
Jenny duBay
Yes. He left her or she had to leave. But that’s not what they wanted. They want a good marriage. So it’s really difficult to even admit. So that first step would be asking for the eyes to see and to really have the grace to be able to. Now we’re getting into release, to release my attachments to. Oh, but it’s not that bad.

00;01;55;22 – 00;02;00;15
Jenny duBay
Oh, but but really be able to release to the truth of what.

00;02;01;23 – 00;02;07;22
Jenny duBay
Because without admitting that truth there is no. Can we really have to correct that.

00;02;07;24 – 00;02;25;02
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yeah. Because you’re not going to be able to do what needs to be done if you’re not living in reality, you know you’re going to be, you’re going to, you’re going to become part of a problem. Right. Because you’re going to be tap dancing around it or, or or what have you. So one form of release or an example might be, what would be an example of release?

00;02;25;02 – 00;02;53;13
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
I’m trying to figure this out myself. So what might she release? When you say at this release stage, you release the idea of the perfect marriage or the the dream you thought you had, or I want him to change. And he might not, he might leave me. I can’t control that. Whether he leaves me or not. He, you know, are all are those examples of things that that I’m a woman might have to release?

00;02;53;15 – 00;03;19;24
Jenny duBay
I would say all of the above. Yes. So. But but the big ones that I run into is, like I said, first admitting. Okay. Because because like you said, you when you admit that you’re an abusive relationship, you also have to admit this is this wasn’t my ideal. When I said I do. I have to release that that dream that I had, you know, and then also, one thing that I really have to work hard on with a lot of clients is releasing that desire to change him.

00;03;19;26 – 00;03;20;11
Jenny duBay
I’m going.

00;03;20;11 – 00;03;22;22
Speaker 3
To. Oh, yeah.

00;03;22;22 – 00;03;33;03
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yeah, yeah. Oh, I’m so glad you said that. Because that that’s been in my mind all along. But to tell people more about that, because that’s, that’s got to be huge.

00;03;33;06 – 00;03;52;23
Jenny duBay
People in abusive relationships, really, they live on hope or they hope he’s going to change and I’m going to help him change. I’m going to either by telling him what he’s doing so he can change, which doesn’t you backfires. You know, that’s usually that. No. Then you get the blame shift is not good. Or just I love him more.

00;03;52;23 – 00;04;17;06
Jenny duBay
I’ll do more. I’ll do this, that. And I have to really help clients to release that desire to change him or to help him change, and to get to the realization that he’s not going to change unless it’s there in his heart to change. The change has to come from him. And there’s absolutely nothing a person in abusive relationship can do.

00;04;17;06 – 00;04;45;02
Jenny duBay
Not a single thing to get their partner to change from being abusive to non abusive. Nothing. It’s not staying, it’s not leaving. It’s not loving more loving, letting, doing more, cleaning the house better, making better meals and pleasing nothing. Change has to come from within an individual. So that’s a big release because yes, it is a control.

00;04;45;02 – 00;04;53;28
Jenny duBay
If I if I could just control him, you know. Right. Not what not not the bad way. But just like I can control the situation, I can.

00;04;54;25 – 00;05;19;16
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
It’s assigning yourself power that you simply don’t have. And and it’s so scary to step out and know I don’t have the power to do this. The only power that I have is to change myself, my behavior for my sake, my internal life, my interior life for my sake. One time I heard a priest say, Father Chad Rippon Jr said this no matter what is going on in the world around you, it should have zero impact on your interior.

00;05;19;16 – 00;05;42;24
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Peace. Okay, now that’s in a way crazy, but in a way it shows you what the goal of your life, the goal of the spiritual life really is that you should be at peace with the Lord and therefore peace internally, so that when the the waves come, you’re like, okay, whatever. You know that you can you don’t flip out whenever something unexpected happens or something like that.

00;05;42;29 – 00;05;54;15
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
So so those were the subsequent steps are about is how you attain your interior peace. I mean could I am rewording what you said, but I mean, I think I think that’s a fair statement of what you’re doing.

00;05;54;17 – 00;06;29;09
Jenny duBay
Yeah, absolutely. And that makes me think of one of the techniques that I teach clients is called the gray rock technique. And so that is like when you when you’re engaged in and it’s a situation that is turning abusive, you know, if that’s verbally and, you know, verbally, psychologically that rather than engaging with your partner and, and trying to get because quite often they try to explain or, you know, try to get him to understand, stand where I’m coming from and that’ll help them to stop verbally attacking me.

00;06;29;13 – 00;06;51;14
Jenny duBay
And that doesn’t work. So gray Rock is just being basically as boring as a gray rock. So not engaging in that situation by just giving. Yeah. If he’s asking a question. Yes. No. Okay. I see, you know, just like bland quick answers, if you have to answer just to, to disengage in that conversation that is turning toxic or is toxic.

00;06;51;17 – 00;07;06;23
Jenny duBay
And when we do the gray rock technique that does also help with your own interior peace, because then you find yourself literally being gray rock, like, okay, here we go again. I’m not gonna I’m not gonna let this disturb my inner peace.

00;07;06;25 – 00;07;28;12
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Right, right. That’s really interesting. You know, one of the things that you talk about in your book at the very end, you talk about the different types of chronic abusers. And I think this word chronic, you use this a few times in the book. I think that’s an important word because it it helps people see that we’re not talking about a one off or somebody having a bad day or something like that, that you got a chronic pattern.

00;07;28;15 – 00;07;44;10
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
There are four different types of abusers that you talk about here, and some of them are more likely to change than others. So why don’t you first spell out the four different personality types that you have discerned? About abusive relationship. Oops.

00;07;44;12 – 00;08;02;01
Jenny duBay
Well, this this came this is very well researched. So there’s there’s been tons of research on different personality types. So the first one would be someone like that has an actual personality disorder. You’re talking and I don’t have the book in front of me. So I don’t have like one, two, three. I don’t I suppose I could look it up.

00;08;02;01 – 00;08;04;16
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
I have the book. Oh, I’ll whip it up here in a minute.

00;08;04;17 – 00;08;07;05
Speaker 3
Okay, okay. Go ahead.

00;08;07;07 – 00;08;10;13
Jenny duBay
What page I have it to, but I just don’t know what what page.

00;08;10;15 – 00;08;12;15
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
You keep talking. I’ll look.

00;08;12;17 – 00;08;41;18
Jenny duBay
So the first one is like someone who has a real personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, borderline or an actual psychopathy. Those types of people are dangerous. Most likely are not going to change. They have. They need some serious professional help. And I’m talking diagnosable, you know, so I can’t say that they can’t change because, you know, God can work miracles.

00;08;41;18 – 00;09;20;25
Jenny duBay
But it would it would take a lot. So the second abuser type is like the the family only where you well just behind closed doors. Only so to the to the outside world. It’s going to be perfect and charming and wonderful and even appear like the great spouse, but then behind closed doors. So it’s, it’s really focused just on family and versus like someone who has, anti-poor, antisocial personality disorder, they’re going to go out and they’re going to pick fights in the bar and they’re going to get arrested.

00;09;20;25 – 00;09;46;05
Jenny duBay
And it’s obvious this is more like overt. People like that can change. They can. I mean, it takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of humility. That’s the thing that people who tend toward using abusive tactics, like you said, they have high narcissistic traits and humility is the opposite of narcissism. So it’s very difficult. But it can be done.

00;09;46;07 – 00;10;11;09
Jenny duBay
It can be, the other type is like a low level antisocial type or personalities who are. So it’s not like you have a personalities. What are you don’t like a personality disorder aspect? So someone who is like more of a low level and again, and they can change. But again, it’s very difficult. More difficult than like, you know, the family only.

00;10;11;11 – 00;10;45;15
Jenny duBay
I think the most common that I run into is well, and this is it’s kind of a confusing the way that the sciences have labeled it is kind of confusing because they call it like a borderline sin type abuser. So you think a borderline personality disorder, that’s not what they’re talking about. But they’re talking about the abusers who generally they, they to, only abuse within the family, but their motive is extreme fear of abandonment.

00;10;45;17 – 00;11;11;23
Jenny duBay
So, abuse is all about power and control. Now, when you have someone who has a personality disorder, their control is they want to control you. They want to be king. They want to they want to control everything. Someone who’s more the borderline traits. Yes, they want to control. They want to control out of fear. So that’s their motivation is usually that’s that fear of abandonment.

00;11;11;23 – 00;11;40;24
Jenny duBay
And that goes back to, you know, childhood issues where they were not in childhood. They, for example, have had neglectful parents who did not give them the emotional support that they needed, or perhaps in one of their parents left or something happened. They’re extremely, extremely insecure. And so to hide that insecurity into that, they turn to these abusive tactics to kind of cling to the relationship, which of course is the opposite.

00;11;40;26 – 00;11;58;22
Jenny duBay
But it’s not like a conscious thing, like, okay, I’m going to do this, just that. So but that’s really what that and I run into that type. Those tend to be more of the covert abusers and that’s really confusing type of abuse because it’s like is it isn’t it. It’s you know, it’s kind of it’s under the radar, but that.

00;11;58;23 – 00;12;03;03
Jenny duBay
Yeah, it’s that just fear of being alone, fear of not being loved.

00;12;03;08 – 00;12;12;29
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And so, among these different types, which would you say is the most likely to be to be motivated to change and to successfully change?

00;12;13;01 – 00;12;15;25
Jenny duBay
I would say that the borderline.

00;12;15;28 – 00;12;17;01
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
The borderline.

00;12;17;04 – 00;12;38;25
Jenny duBay
Yeah. Because of that fear of that fear of abandonment once they realize because generally, don’t want to get to attachment styles too much because that’s a whole nother conversation. But, you know, when they’re when we’re children, we develop attachment styles. So if we have a secure attachment style, we have parents who were loving and supportive. And if we have, you know, like an anxious attachment.

00;12;38;25 – 00;13;03;10
Jenny duBay
So we had parents who didn’t love us or give us the emotional support we needed or something happened. And so they’ll grow up with that fear of abandonment. And when a person realizes the dynamics of what’s going on, what within themselves needs to heal. So it’s it’s an admittance of, okay, there’s something wrong with me, there’s something wrong with all of us because we’re human beings, right?

00;13;03;10 – 00;13;15;26
Jenny duBay
You know, but it’s like that humility to say, okay, I want I want to change this because I want my marriage to work. So there they are, the more likely to to get to that place. Yeah.

00;13;15;26 – 00;13;17;14
Speaker 3
This is good. Yeah.

00;13;17;14 – 00;13;32;20
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
If they if there’s something there that they want that they’re motivated to do, then, then that will give them an interior reason to, to try to heal. Have you ever in your work, in your experience, have you ever encountered anybody who’s successfully, successfully changed?

00;13;32;22 – 00;13;59;02
Jenny duBay
Honestly it is very rare. So the answer to your question is yes, but not often at all. It is. You know I don’t want to give false hope to anyone. And, and I would never say to a woman stay with your partner in case he changes because again we can’t change it. And a lot of times it takes just like that separation or that something big shift for them to be like, okay, I’ve got to change.

00;13;59;02 – 00;14;14;01
Jenny duBay
I’ve got to do something. So don’t ever stay with someone for hopes of change. But yes, I have very, very, very rarely seen it professionally. In my own personal life. That’s my story.

00;14;15;05 – 00;14;37;23
Jenny duBay
Very happy to say that that is my story. After a decade, over a decade of being in an abusive relationship, my husband did through Christ, is Christ centered healing. He had to come back to really finding his faith and having the humility to look me in the eye and say, I have been abusive. I don’t want to be that man.

00;14;37;28 – 00;15;05;22
Jenny duBay
But that’s what it takes to to be able to put to actually name that, not to say, oh, maybe I mistreat no. And like mentioned the ways in which he mistreated me and what and again, his own journey of like, okay, I need to heal. I understand why now, but that’s not an excuse. But I need to heal this past these childhood wounds that are now coming up in my adulthood.

00;15;05;24 – 00;15;28;00
Jenny duBay
And it was a long, long journey. So just to throw out there because I think it’s really important for people to understand the abuse cycle. So generally in abusive relationships there is a cycle. So there will be an abusive incident. So it’s not abuse 24 seven and the people would recognize it right away. There is an abusive incident after that abusive incident.

00;15;28;02 – 00;15;49;06
Jenny duBay
There is usually a makeup phase. They call it the honeymoon phase where the abuser will, or the hoovering phase, like the Hoover vacuum cleaner, try to, you know, hoover the their spouse back in with flowers and candy and saying great things. Oh I’m going to change. I’m going to go to therapy like you asked me to do. I’m going to do this.

00;15;49;06 – 00;16;11;01
Jenny duBay
I’m going to do that, you know, followed by a tension building stage where, okay, maybe he’s doing these things, maybe not, but you can just feel the tension in the air and then it blows up again and it’s just the cycle. So part of the cycle is that stage where the abuser will say, I’m going to change, I’m going to do what you want.

00;16;11;04 – 00;16;29;25
Jenny duBay
So if there’s true change taking place, you have to be sure it’s not part of the abuse cycle. And how do you do that? How do you do that? Well, a lot of prayer, a lot of discernment, and a lot of time. I’m talking years. I’m not talking months. My husband and I were separated for years. I had to get back the trust.

00;16;29;27 – 00;16;50;23
Jenny duBay
I had to know that this was real. And that’s another thing of knowing whether change is real. Is the partner willing to give his spouse the space it takes for her to heal. And I say her him I know gender, I just you know her, him her. But if they’re going to give the space separate, healing has to take place.

00;16;50;25 – 00;17;17;02
Jenny duBay
The victim has to heal the now survivor the the a, the person who is abusive has to heal separately. And I’m talking about even no contact just separately before they can come together again. And someone who is still actively on that abuse cycle and an active abuser and just making fake promises to change is not going to have the patience of years of waiting.

00;17;17;09 – 00;17;31;16
Jenny duBay
They’re not going to they’re going to be like, no, it’s been three months. Come on, get move back in. Got to get back together. Things should be okay. Now. What’s the matter with you for taking so long to heal? There’s going to be that impatience. And then it’s going to build up, and then there’ll be another abusive incident.

00;17;31;18 – 00;17;53;03
Jenny duBay
Versus when there’s real change, there’s real patience. There’s real love versus what there was before. And it takes a whole rebuilding. It’s not like you can just repair a house. You have to rebuild it from the foundation up. So it’s a lot of work. And like I said, years, not months of work, but it’s possible.

00;17;53;06 – 00;18;14;22
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And and part of the part of what I’m hearing you say is that these kind of traumatic events, these abusive incidents, each one is, in a way, it’s own trauma. And so you’re dealing with a when you’re dealing with what they call complex trauma because it’s repeated and, and therefore you’re a prime candidate for PTSD, then you’ve got what they call complex PTSD.

00;18;14;22 – 00;18;37;17
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Am I using these terms correctly. Right. And so you don’t what you don’t want to do is go aggravated without, you know, without proper intervention and and so on and so forth. Somewhere in this book, you said something about couples therapy, in an abusive relationship. Am I remembering that correctly? If I remember correctly, you’re saying if you think you’re being an abusive relationship, do not go for couples.

00;18;37;17 – 00;18;41;21
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
That counseling did I did I make that up? Is that what you said?

00;18;41;23 – 00;18;43;22
Jenny duBay
That is absolutely what I said. Yes.

00;18;43;24 – 00;18;46;13
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Explain yourself, because that’s really interesting.

00;18;46;15 – 00;19;20;10
Jenny duBay
I will yeah, it’s really important because, that will do more harm than good. And an abusive relationship is not a normal relationship. There’s an abnormal situation. And generally what an abuser will do is they’ll go into therapy and they will be charming and wonderful and win over the therapist and the therapist doesn’t know and in the course of the therapy, or then the abusive spouse will blame the abused spouse for something that they did or but and then the therapist will will let’s talk about that.

00;19;20;10 – 00;19;40;15
Jenny duBay
And so it puts like the guilt on the the victim because they adds to the brain fog and that confusion. It’s like okay, so now this therapist is saying I did wrong and I know I didn’t, but there are professionals, so I guess I must have. So in the just the confusion and also just the trauma, you’ll be retraumatized in therapy.

00;19;40;15 – 00;19;58;14
Jenny duBay
So you’re absolutely right about complex PTSD and how each incident is a trauma in itself that adds to this. You know, think of like a ball. You know, you have this little thing of like me, put another one in and put another one. And all of a sudden you have this huge ball. That’s what it’s like, you know?

00;19;58;14 – 00;20;13;10
Jenny duBay
So it’s like adding therapy will add to it. So that’s why I say it. Healing has to be separate. You have to do it on your own. That’s really the, the only way. And yeah, a couples therapist.

00;20;13;13 – 00;20;38;04
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yeah. Because you’re separating that you’re, you’re breaking up that cycle. If you’re together in the therapist office, a true abuser can so easily triangulate with the therapist. Right. And then you get re abused. And so the cycle has to be broken. Unless that person is really astute, they’re going to get, you know, get sucked right into the to the process and become part of the process which, which is what you don’t want.

00;20;38;06 – 00;21;01;04
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
You know, there are so many interesting things that you said in this, in this book. One thing that I want to ask you about is your chapter on the most abused verses in the Bible. Let’s talk about some of those, verses that, in your opinion, are misused. What are they and what’s the correct usage of those Bible verses?

00;21;01;07 – 00;21;37;02
Jenny duBay
Well, I think the most common is from Ephesians. I think we all know wives must be submissive to their husbands, and that one is I dedicate a lot of the chapter just on Ephesians five, because it is so. It’s so misused and so misunderstood. So in the chapter I talk about, first of all, when you read the Bible, we have to understand we’re reading a 2000 plus year old document, and we have to understand the historical context, especially in the letters of Saint Paul, because he was writing to these actual communities.

00;21;37;02 – 00;21;58;11
Jenny duBay
And what he was doing in Ephesians five was taking what was called household codes. So that was something that dates back all the way to Aristotle times. In the Roman culture, they would have household codes to tell men how to run their household. And in the Roman culture, the wives were just a little teeny step above the servants.

00;21;58;19 – 00;22;23;29
Jenny duBay
And what what Saint Paul actually did in Ephesians five is those household call codes and kind of turn them on its head by saying there’s mutual submission. So taking wives must be submissive to their husbands out of context and not going reading the first line, which is the mutual submission, and then reading how okay the husbands are to love their wives like Christ loves the church.

00;22;23;29 – 00;22;58;06
Jenny duBay
How can you do that if it’s abusing your spouse right? It’s all about Christ’s love to the church unto death. He died and right for. So it’s like it’s like you said before, they have a really big responsibility. And another thing I think we need to understand what the word submission means. So we think in today’s terms submission means we have to be, you know, a servant to someone else or just do what they say.

00;22;58;08 – 00;23;25;29
Jenny duBay
But think of it sub and then missio mission. So sub is under under the mission. So wives have to be under the mission of their husbands. And then Saint Paul talks about what the mission of the husbands are. The, the mission of the husbands is to love their wife like Christ loves the church, to make their wives holy, help them reach holiness.

00;23;25;29 – 00;23;44;13
Jenny duBay
That’s the goal. Spouses. It’s intended in marriage. So for wives to be submission under the mission of their husbands that mean in their mission of the husbands is to love their wives and to help their wives become holy. And that’s kind of a mission I like to be under. That sounds fine to me to be loving, right?

00;23;44;16 – 00;23;45;22
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Right, right.

00;23;45;22 – 00;23;52;22
Jenny duBay
Yep. Really get to the truth of what these verses mean. What Saint Augustine.

00;23;52;25 – 00;24;18;14
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And what is the mission here? There’s there’s a beautiful line. I, I’ve had the opportunity to interview one of the Habsburgs, Edward, Archduke Edward Hapsburg, because he’s written a couple of really interesting books. Anyway, his great relative, Emperor Karl, when Emperor Karl and, Princess Zita got married on their wedding day, he said to her, now we must help each other get to heaven.

00;24;18;16 – 00;24;42;12
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And he’s the emperor of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. You know, it’s not like he’s some, you know, schmuck or something, you know, like it. And that that’s another part of Catholic culture that people don’t necessarily recognize hierarchy all over the place within Catholicism. But everybody has responsibilities up and down the ladder, right? So, husband, if you abuse the authority, we we agree you have authority in the household.

00;24;42;12 – 00;25;00;22
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
We agree with that. We want to submit to your lawful authority. But if you mislead it, you’re going to have a problem on Judgment Day. You know, you’re going to have something to answer for. Right? And so the understanding has always been that just because you’re over someone in the hierarchy, it doesn’t mean you get to do whatever you want.

00;25;00;24 – 00;25;20;25
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And Ephesians five read properly makes it very clear, I think, and you know, you did a good job just now and you do a nice job in the book explaining, you know, it’s not an unlimited power. Yeah, yeah, you have power, but it’s not unlimited. You know, there are principles by which it but which it’s limited. And the mission itself is the limiting factor.

00;25;21;02 – 00;25;26;11
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Why why do we have order in the House? Well, well, because we’re all trying to go to heaven.

00;25;26;14 – 00;25;48;27
Jenny duBay
Yeah. And that brings up another interesting aspect to of helping women to understand that that is the goal is to make our spouses holy and sometimes because women, I can’t leave my husband because I’m in a Catholic marriage. But we have to understand to we need to help save their souls. And sometimes it is actually the leaving that helps because we’re not enabling them to abuse anymore.

00;25;48;29 – 00;25;51;05
Jenny duBay
So I just needed to.

00;25;51;07 – 00;26;15;17
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yeah, yeah. If you if you. And I’m glad that you use that word enabling because in a sense, if you had a husband who’s alcoholic, you don’t want to you don’t want to enable him, right? You don’t want to make his life easier as an alcoholic. That shouldn’t be your goal, right? And I’ve heard any number of cases from my childhood to five minutes ago, basically of women who said, I’ve had enough of, you’re drinking, you’re out, get out of here.

00;26;15;20 – 00;26;18;29
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And then the husband’s like, oh, crybaby.

00;26;19;01 – 00;26;21;15
Speaker 3
I better cut this out, like I.

00;26;21;21 – 00;26;40;18
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
I didn’t mean to lose everything over, you know, that kind of a thing. Like. Like you said, the shock to the system. So if you think about the abusive relationship, as being a kind of addiction for the abusive party, right? If you let him go on with that, you’re, you’re it’s like you’re enabling his addiction. You. That’s not okay.

00;26;40;18 – 00;27;00;13
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Right? So, if you feel you need to leave because you’ve got something disruptive going on, something destructive going on, leaving is okay. Stop thinking about whether you’re going to get married again. And this is another thing I want to ask you about, because I hear this from time to time. Oh, I left my husband because I have this nice man who’s going to help me.

00;27;00;16 – 00;27;17;25
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And so now I’ve been abused all this time. You didn’t know I was being abused, but I was really being abused all this time. I’m going to go after this guy who’s going to help me, and he’s going to save my life. And I just didn’t have the courage to do that before I met this nice man. I have I think you can tell that I don’t think much of that argument.

00;27;17;27 – 00;27;38;00
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
But. So I’ve kind of loaded the deck here, but but I would like to, since you, you know, you talk to a lot more people in these situations than I do. So I would like to hear your your perspective on the subsequent relationships for a person. If you have been in an abusive relationship, where do you go with your thought process about a subsequent relationship?

00;27;38;02 – 00;28;05;07
Jenny duBay
So if you find a subsequent relationship before healing, it’s most likely going to be abusive, especially if it’s right. If it’s immediately after, oh, I found this other person and it. So we’ll get into the trauma bond. So a trauma bond is formed when you are in an abusive relationship. And it’s that up and down of like the abuser being treating you wonderful during that honeymoon phase and then treating you terribly.

00;28;05;10 – 00;28;32;18
Jenny duBay
And it’s like he is being your attacker but also your rescuer. And this creates a dynamic in it’s in on a global level, it’s called Stockholm syndrome. But in person relationship is the trauma bond. And it is a brain chemical because you’re releasing all these brain chemicals during the time of the abusive incident, and then all the loving brain hormones during the times of the make up time.

00;28;32;18 – 00;28;55;20
Jenny duBay
It creates this cocktail in your mind. You have a trauma bond that needs to be released. It has to be healed. If you leave a relationship and you’re still trauma one to that person, but you find someone else, you will instantly be trauma bonded to that other person and most likely be attracted to someone. It’s we tend and this isn’t conscious, but we tend to be attracted to what we feel is love.

00;28;55;23 – 00;29;21;00
Jenny duBay
And that previous abusive relationship felt like love because a trauma bond feels like love. And so they find someone new and what happens is they find someone. It feels like love. He’s my rescuer. He’s going to rescue me. Well, where did we just hear about someone rescuing in the abuse cycle? Right. So what happens is when they just jump onto a new relationship the majority of the time, I can’t say I’ve ever known it not to be.

00;29;21;03 – 00;29;27;29
Jenny duBay
I can’t, you know, I’m maybe exceptions, but I haven’t known one. It will be another abusive relationship.

00;29;28;01 – 00;29;29;01
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yeah. Yeah.

00;29;29;04 – 00;29;31;02
Jenny duBay
I’m. I’m yourself.

00;29;31;04 – 00;29;55;07
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Oh. Oh, I am so, so glad to hear you say that, because that was my intuition and, you know, is that that your your judgment would be impaired. Right. You know, if you’re if you really are desperate, you really are being abused, that’s the last thing you want to do is go pick out a new guy, you know, you don’t know what you’re doing, and you just explained specifically and concretely why that’s the case.

00;29;55;10 – 00;30;28;15
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
I want to put another factor on the table. You know, I’m not trying to freak anybody out here, but these are very complex things and have a lot of moving part to if you’ve got kids and you are trauma bonded and you’re in this situation and you go pick out some guy Johnny, but about two years ago now, I did an interview with the detective who specialized in crimes against children, and he told me that in the vast majority of the cases, when the guy is the biological father of the child, married to the mother, when that’s the abuser, I can count that on the fingers of one hand.

00;30;28;18 – 00;30;51;22
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And he’d done 500 cases and he says, you know, women, women are desperate for somebody. They are attracted to somebody because they need money or they’re lonely or whatever it is. They’re desperate. And he and he just, he’s like, lady, lady, he doesn’t say this, but you know, he’s looking at the case. He’s not interested in you. He’s interested in your ten year old daughter.

00;30;51;24 – 00;31;15;27
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
No, no. You know, it’s like a trick. It’s like a slow moving train wreck. You can see it. So obviously not every case involves every single thing that we’re talking about. But these patterns are robust enough that you really need to be. You don’t want to go out looking for a relationship on the rebound. That’s just not a good idea at at all.

00;31;15;29 – 00;31;17;23
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Thank you for saying that.

00;31;17;26 – 00;31;42;13
Jenny duBay
I thank you for mentioning that about the children, because that’s important. And, you know, one of the things that is part of the healing is so that, yes, the the desire for a relationship is just ingrained in us. That’s how we’re created. So you want a new relationship? Okay. I can help coach you through a new relationship. It’s called a relationship with Christ, our divine bridegroom developed that.

00;31;42;16 – 00;32;20;04
Jenny duBay
And that’s another thing we do with at Hope’s Garden is we have classes on the Song of Songs, which is a very, very difficult, difficult book of the Bible to read after you’ve been abused. And yet it is the feeling when you get into it, it is incredible. Develop that relationship with Christ, your Divine Bridegroom. And then if in the future you should have any other relationships with a human being, you know another person, it’s going to be a healthy relationship, because that relationship is going to be built on a foundation of Christ, which is exactly what Saint Paul says in Ephesians five.

00;32;20;06 – 00;32;29;02
Jenny duBay
So now we’re going back to Ephesians. But that’s like the primary of like you want to heal. You feel like you need a relationship with God.

00;32;29;02 – 00;32;31;25
Speaker 3
One wow.

00;32;31;28 – 00;32;56;08
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Wow, that is very beautiful. That is really powerful. And, I’m really glad. I’m really glad. I’m so glad we’re having this conversation. Jenny. I’m so glad we’re getting to know each other, you know, because I just. This is an important aspect. Sometimes. Sometimes trauma and disruption reveals the truth about what? Normal is more than normal itself. I didn’t say that very well, but I think you get what I mean.

00;32;56;08 – 00;33;07;22
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
You know, it’s like. Like when you see something that’s really a wreck, you go, whoa, that is not right. And then you start to think about, well, what? Well, what is right, you know, and, and to, to point.

00;33;08;26 – 00;33;28;15
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
The relationship with Jesus is the thing that is going to, give you first of all, he’s not going to let you down. That’s number one. Number two, it gives you the perspective of of what you really do deserve, of the way you’re supposed to be loved. This is this is the kind of love that is thus, this is what normal is.

00;33;28;23 – 00;33;49;13
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Everybody would love everybody like this if it wasn’t for the fall, if it wasn’t for Adam and Eve. Darn them. Anyway, if this is what it’s meant to be. This is what human love is really meant to be, you know? And then that, then that becomes your template instead of the stupid trauma bond being your template, you know, one other thing.

00;33;49;13 – 00;34;06;03
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
I think you say this in here, or maybe I just made this up. Adoration. Talk to people about Eucharistic adoration because that’s where you that’s where you’re bond with the Lord. And this is okay, guys, we’re going full Catholic 100%. Look at full disclosure. Go ahead.

00;34;06;15 – 00;34;33;21
Jenny duBay
That’s the adoration is one of the most healing. Then again we get back to Christ the break and getting to know Christ sitting there. So in adoration for those who aren’t Catholic. Well, what is adoration? Adoration is being in the presence of Christ through the sacrament of the Eucharist. So there is right there in front of us we can see the Eucharist, we can see the body of Christ.

00;34;33;21 – 00;34;57;15
Jenny duBay
And just it enables us to just be present with our Lord and to just ask, ask, go back to ask, you know, ask for him, for his, for his kisses. That’s what the first line the song says, let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth, which again is a very difficult image for someone who’s been abused.

00;34;57;18 – 00;35;21;09
Jenny duBay
I know for me, when I first heard that line, I’m like, oh, all I can imagine was, you know, it was very difficult. But then we realize what the kisses of Christ mean. It’s so powerful, and the best way to do that is just to give ourselves completely and just adoration being with him. And that’s what he just wants us to sit with him, just to sit with him and go back to the Garden of Gethsemane, where he said, can’t you sit with me for an hour?

00;35;21;11 – 00;35;44;08
Jenny duBay
We just sit with him and we just bask in his healing fragrance. And it is it is really it’s powerful. The more like when I first started my adoration practice, it was like crazy hours up. Yeah, you know, it’s hard to get it. And then when you get the graces to be really understand what it is, it is so beautiful.

00;35;44;11 – 00;36;04;04
Jenny duBay
It is so beautiful. And I want to throw out there too. I know where, unfortunately, where I am. We have live adoration once a month, first Fridays, that’s it. That’s only opportunity I have. I have discovered the online adoration. At first that seemed weird to me. Like, okay, I’m on my computer. It’s not the same as live, of course, but you’re we’re still you’re still in Christ presence.

00;36;04;04 – 00;36;09;22
Jenny duBay
He can transcend the computer. He can. Right. He’s there. So if you can’t go, you can still go.

00;36;09;24 – 00;36;28;05
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and the other thing, you know, sometimes we get, we, we make too much of the of the Eucharist exposed in the Blessed Sacrament in the monstrance. But you can go into any church and he’s there in the tabernacle, you know, and you just sit there and you just you can you can feel him. You can absorb him.

00;36;28;10 – 00;36;51;14
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
We had a really interesting interview with a with a woman who healed from, drug abuse and, transgender thoughts and feelings. She didn’t go through with that, thank God. But she’d been a lesbian for a number of years, lots of mental health challenges. And she related on this program sitting in front of look, looking at the light, looking at the sanctuary light and hearing the voice, just look at me.

00;36;51;17 – 00;37;12;07
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Just look at me. And she didn’t even know what it was about, you know, she wasn’t Catholic. She didn’t know what it was all about, but she was just drawn, so drawn into all of that. And this is a very beautiful, thing that we’re talking about here right now. But it it’d be great if we could stop here, but there’s one point we haven’t talked about yet that I do think we should cover.

00;37;12;10 – 00;37;32;01
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
There’s a very important issue that you raised in your book. At the back of the book, you have something called a safety plan. You have guidelines for making a safety plan. I want you to talk about what a safety plan is and why a person might need to have a safety plan. Maybe start with that.

00;37;32;03 – 00;37;56;08
Jenny duBay
Okay, a safety belt for safety. If if you have to get out of an abusive relationship. The one thing to understand is that the most dangerous time for for women, especially if they’ve been in physical, physically abusive relationships, but not necessarily even if in the past it was, just not just but you know what I mean? Emotional, psychological, spiritual abuse.

00;37;56;11 – 00;38;22;05
Jenny duBay
It still can turn physical. When a person leaves the relationship, that’s the most dangerous time physically for them. That is usually when the abuser will, do physical harm. The murders that happen when women are in abusive relationships percentage wise more often happen when they’ve left.

00;38;23;03 – 00;39;03;24
Jenny duBay
I was just important. I didn’t mind, which isn’t to say, okay, I don’t have to stay is to say, well, you need a safety plan in place. So in the back of the book, I write out just all the things like but even just, just having like so for example, part of your safety plan can be having a backpack and hiding it, but having a backpack with essential clothes, if you have children, things that your children are going to need, your, Social security number card, your, passports, just things that you will need for a quick getaway, but also just ensuring that, okay, if you do have to leave, you have places you can

00;39;03;24 – 00;39;22;28
Jenny duBay
go, you people you can rely on. You have, everything in place so that you’re just not gone. And then what am I going to do? And so it’s just really important to, to really to know all your safe people, your safe places, to have all your things just in case.

00;39;23;00 – 00;39;41;09
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
This has been a really enjoyable or, well, enjoyable is maybe not the right word. This has been a very uplifting and enlightening, period of time that we’ve spent together, and I appreciate your time. I appreciate your ministry, you know, because I’m not aware of anybody else doing quite what you’re doing. And so I want to make sure that people are aware of it.

00;39;41;09 – 00;40;01;23
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
If you do need these kind of services of, you know, anybody who needs it. Jenny, I want you to know here at the end, tell people exactly where they can find you and what they’ll find. Because you’ve mentioned a number of different ministries. You have this book and we’ve we’ve been talking about this book. The book is only a part of the ministry, if I understand correctly.

00;40;01;23 – 00;40;07;03
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
So just tell people the basic parts of the ministry and how they can find them.

00;40;07;06 – 00;40;28;27
Jenny duBay
Okay. Well, so as you said, you know, one part is my writing ministry. So I have the book. I also have, Substack blog. So that’s Create Soul space.org where, you know, I try weekly to write articles just updating and all kinds of information. So that’s, that’s one aspect. And then my coaching that we discussed before.

00;40;28;27 – 00;40;48;01
Jenny duBay
So anyone can come to, to my site and male or female, please come to me because if you are male, as I said, I only have female clients. I will refer you to his name is Bernard and I’m Bernard. If you’re watching this, please forgive me for not pronouncing your last name right. It’s slight. I’m not going to try.

00;40;48;06 – 00;40;58;23
Jenny duBay
He’s Austrian anyways. Lovely last name, but I’m not going to try to pronounce it. But I will refer to him. So coaching. And then. And that’s.

00;40;58;23 – 00;41;03;18
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Called. What is that called. What’s the website associated with the coaching part.

00;41;03;21 – 00;41;24;00
Jenny duBay
My it just Jenny duBay.Com. Oh okay. Very easy to remember, easy to remember. And then the ministry that’s well it’s all close to my heart. But Hope’s garden was the other one that I mentioned. So Hope’s garden, like I said, is an online community for just healing hearts, marriages and families. And we have within the community.

00;41;24;00 – 00;41;50;23
Jenny duBay
It’s a mighty networked community. So we can go online and just post things, post encouragement, and then we meet together for prayer, support groups, classes, whatever. However much involvement or however little involvement a person wants to be. And we have special groups, for a domestic violence family of origin, trauma. People who have, spouses who have addictions.

00;41;50;26 – 00;42;11;08
Jenny duBay
Just general I mean, just or just those who want to just grow in love of Christ. Don’t you don’t have to have drama like that to be a member of Hope’s Garden. But it is such a beautiful, blessed community. It’s truly spirit led. And we just there’s so much to offer there. Again, that’s it’s a woman’s Catholic community.

00;42;11;08 – 00;42;20;08
Jenny duBay
But we do have other you don’t have to be Catholic. But it is, you know, very Catholic. And then men of hope for the men’s community.

00;42;20;11 – 00;42;43;07
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
But, Jenny Dubay, this has been a very fascinating time. And I feel like I’ve learned a lot. I thought I knew what it was talking about when I read your book, but talking with you brings out so many more things, different aspects of the things you talk about in this book. So I, I strongly recommend that if people are in these situations that you’re familiar as yourself with this book and and with the other resources that Jenny has to offer.

00;42;43;14 – 00;42;57;11
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And I just want to thank you so very much for your ministry and for your love of of Christ and your love of Christ’s people. And, just thank you so much for being my guest on today’s episode of The Doctor J. Show.

00;42;57;14 – 00;43;13;03
Jenny duBay
Thank you. I appreciate it.

👉 Watch the full uncensored video on Rumble or on Locals

Know someone who needs to hear this? Share this post. The truth heals.

Have a question or a comment? Leave it in the comments, and we’ll get back to you!

Subscribe to our YouTube playlist:  @RuthInstitute  

Follow us on Social Media:

https://www.instagram.com/theruthinstitute

Tweets by RuthInstitute

https://www.facebook.com/TheRuthInstitute

https://theruthinstitute.locals.com/newsfeed

Press:

NC Register: https://www.ncregister.com/author/jennifer-roback-morse

Catholic Answers: https://www.catholic.com/profile/jennifer-roback-morse

The Stream: https://stream.org/author/jennifer-roback-morse/

Crisis Magazine: https://crisismagazine.com/author/jennifer-roeback-morse

Father Sullins’ Reports on Clergy Sexual Abuse: https://ruthinstitute.org/resource-centers/father-sullins-research/

Buy Dr. Morse’s Books:

The Sexual State: https://ruthinstitute.org/product/the-sexual-state-2/

Love and Economics: https://ruthinstitute.org/product/love-and-economics-it-takes-a-family-to-raise-a-village/

Smart Sex: https://ruthinstitute.org/product/smart-sex-finding-life-long-love-in-a-hook-up-world/

101 Tips for a Happier Marriage: https://ruthinstitute.org/product/101-tips-for-a-happier-marriage/

101 Tips for Marrying the Right Person: https://ruthinstitute.org/product/101-tips-for-marrying-the-right-person/

Listen to our podcast: 

Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-ruth-institute-podcast/id309797947

Spotify – https://open.spotify.com/show/1t7mWLRHjrCqNjsbH7zXv1

Subscribe to our newsletter to get this amazing report: Refute the Top 5 Gay Myths https://ruthinstitute.org/refute-the-top-five-myths/

Get the full interview by joining us for exclusive, uncensored content on Locals: https://theruthinstitute.locals.com/support

About the Ruth Institute

The Ruth Institute is a global non-profit organization, leading an international interfaith coalition to defend the family and build a civilization of love.

Jennifer Roback Morse has a Ph.D. in economics and has taught at Yale and George Mason University. She is the author of The Sexual State and Love and Economics – It Takes a Family to Raise a Village.

To get more information or schedule an interview with Dr. Morse, contact media@ruthinstitute.org.

---