Brayn Shen on the Dr. J Show | Part 2
In this part of The Dr. J Show interview with counselor and Catholic missionary Bryan Shen, he discusses the hidden emotional roots of same-sex attraction, especially within religious communities. Shen explains how trauma, perfectionism, and family dysfunction can create deep psychological wounds that manifest as identity confusion. He challenges Western narratives that promote affirmation without understanding and stresses the urgent need for proper education and pastoral care, particularly for seminarians and clergy. With real-life examples from his work across Asia, Shen exposes the dangers of untrained interventions, the spiritual costs of emotional repression, and the healing power of truth, humility, and faith.
Full Interview: https://youtu.be/198ZR6y5Y7Q?si=TsSyG-jacCtMbw42
Part 1: https://youtu.be/wUi4yvSpWeE
00:00 Education as a Catalyst for Change
03:01 The Dangers of Misinformation and Conversion Therapy
06:45 Personal Struggles: A Journey of Self-Acceptance
11:58 The Impact of Faith and Community on Healing
20:24 Understanding Non-Sexual Consequences of Non-Heterosexuality
27:18 Cultural Pressures and Perfectionism in Asian Communities
32:13 The Role of Faith in Addressing Societal Issues
37:06 The Importance of Humility in Personal and Community Growth
40:18 Empathy Through Personal Struggles
44:51 Common Origins of Sexual Brokenness
50:24 The Role of the International Foundation for Therapeutic and Counseling Choice
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Transcript
(Please note the transcript is auto-generated and likely contains errors)
00;00;00;27 – 00;00;26;07
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And so if I if I may ask, what I’m hearing you say is that you create an educational environment for a larger community, not just for one individual or even one family, but you’re trying to educate the whole community to be supportive. Do you do one on one therapy counseling the way people do? You know, the way Doctor Floyd would do?
00;00;26;10 – 00;00;33;08
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Or Doctor Rodriguez would do? Do you do you ever do that type of of work with just one on one?
00;00;33;10 – 00;00;46;19
Bryan Shen
Well, I started with that, especially in the seminaries. But as time goes on, I realize that, the numbers in Asia is just huge. It’s just so big,
00;00;46;19 – 00;01;09;27
Bryan Shen
right? The more I give education to a church community, you know, just one talk. I will get so many requests from the individual, from the parents. So what I’ve done, recently was to train more counselors, to train more pastors, to be able to take these cases.
00;01;09;29 – 00;01;39;01
Bryan Shen
So I do have, a dedicated group of counselors who they do come together once a month, and they present case studies. So we look at individual cases, whether it is the parent or the child or even the, the sibling. But remember the non-heterosexual, the LGBTQ thing, that’s not the issue. What’s the issue? It’s what’s everything underneath, right?
00;01;39;02 – 00;01;42;06
Bryan Shen
Background history and what can be done.
00;01;42;11 – 00;02;05;03
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Now, do you know in your in your bio, I want to just clarify one point, because your terminology in Asia is a little different from ours. In your bio, you explain that you are a registered counselor, at which we which would be sort of the equivalent of being a licensed counselor, I think. Is that right? Okay. And then you also say you’re a supervisor, a registered supervisor.
00;02;05;03 – 00;02;33;17
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And does that refer to supervising the other, therapist like you were just now describing? Is that what that means? Okay. So that’s a position that’s like a licensed position. You know, I’m in economics. We don’t have anything like that, you know? So, so you are licensed and recognized in some way by your licensing authorities in Singapore and Thailand and whatnot to that you can provide training to other counselors.
00;02;33;17 – 00;02;34;09
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
That’s what that means.
00;02;34;13 – 00;02;34;27
Bryan Shen
Okay.
00;02;34;29 – 00;02;46;08
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Okay. So that’s obviously a higher leveraged position, right. If you can train more therapists now you’re cooking, you know, now you’ve got more, results there.
00;02;46;10 – 00;02;59;15
Bryan Shen
Yes. However, what’s needed, which is the education, that’s sorely needed. That’s, that’s really needed, not just in Singapore, but, in all the countries around.
00;02;59;21 – 00;03;26;15
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Right, right. And a couple of points come to my mind, in the debate over so-called conversion therapy here in the United States, people refer to all these terrible, awful practices which I gather are coming out of Africa and Asia. Nobody’s doing them in the United States, but they’re using that as their rationale for regulating therapists and what goes on in the therapist’s office, which is a little, a little odd.
00;03;26;15 – 00;03;44;23
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
But then when I read some of what you were dealing with, I realize, okay, this is a real thing. You know, if people doing. I don’t even know how to describe it. Doing things that have a low probability of working, let’s put it that way at a high probability and a high probability of being abusive, you know, of making things worse.
00;03;44;23 – 00;03;53;07
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Right. And that’s that is your environment that you’re operating in. That is a factor in your environment in a way that it’s not you is.
00;03;53;10 – 00;04;25;25
Bryan Shen
Yeah. Yes. Okay. And I will add having conversion therapy ban is not the way to stop these unlicensed terrible practices. It’s not going to work because the desperation of the one who struggles with it is, is that, in other words, that person who struggles with it has a high probability of saying, yes, I will go through it, even if it means you know something that sounds crazy, but I am desperate.
00;04;25;25 – 00;04;51;05
Bryan Shen
So that’s one. Number two, without education, you will have many people who are unlicensed who are religious teachers who do want to help, but they will help in ways that they have no idea that is correct or wrong. Right. Let me give you just one example which which, you know, when I just heard it, I was just wanted to cry.
00;04;51;07 – 00;05;14;26
Bryan Shen
It happened even in a advanced city like Singapore where this girl, she’s struggling and her religious teacher says, okay, I will help you. And believe me, I’m very sure this religious teacher really wanted to help her. She says, you come at night because it has to happen at a certain phase of the moon. You’ve got to be in this big jar.
00;05;14;26 – 00;05;37;23
Bryan Shen
We put ice cold water, you go in naked, and I will say prayers as you go in. And as you go in, I will wash your vagina and you will be cured. And you know, and as she was washing her, she felt that he was washing her inappropriately. He denied it. But who’s to say who is right and who?
00;05;37;23 – 00;06;02;03
Bryan Shen
Who’s wrong? But obviously it doesn’t cure anything. And obviously over time, you know, she just felt it was so inappropriate and and it was a big problem. So unless the education is given. And by the way, I did give the education after that. And then, you know, the religious teacher went like this. Anyway, he was so ashamed of himself.
00;06;02;06 – 00;06;04;09
Bryan Shen
Well, that, you know, I know and.
00;06;04;10 – 00;06;24;20
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Wow, wow. Yeah, yeah, I see and so, so an incorrect theory, is a big problem. And so this teacher, whatever, had a theory that this was going to help in the West, we have this theory that, people are born gay. And the correct way to deal with that is to just tell everybody to affirm their gayness.
00;06;24;20 – 00;06;45;15
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And that will help. We’ve never actually tested that theory, you know, in a systematic way. They just assume that that’s true. Right. But there are that creates its own set of problems because it’s not really based in reality. If you don’t mind, Brian, at this point, I would like, if you don’t mind sharing your personal testimony of how this happened, how you got involved.
00;06;45;20 – 00;06;56;10
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
You mentioned very early in our in our time together that you had a crisis at some point when you were in the Air Force. Tell us a bit about your own experience with this.
00;06;56;12 – 00;07;23;25
Bryan Shen
Well, I was a middle child of three boys, and for some reason, my father didn’t like, oh. At the best I could put it, he has no preference for me. He preferred my older brother, and my younger brother was his favorite. I was physically and emotionally abused by him many times. Not sexually abuse. But what created that created a very strong motivation for me to prove myself.
00;07;23;25 – 00;07;35;28
Bryan Shen
You know, I want to show him that I am good and I’m upright, and that all those drives were the one that, pushed me to become a fighter pilot.
00;07;36;00 – 00;07;41;18
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
That’s a pretty masculine occupation. That’s a pretty masculine IQ. You know, I just want to just point that out, right?
00;07;41;21 – 00;08;04;28
Bryan Shen
Yes, yes. When I was. Let me see, I was about 13, 14 years old. I had my first crush on a classmate who was male. But in those days, there was no such weed. There was no word for homosexuality. Even the word gay only meant happy. There was no other meaning to the word gay. And to me, you know, you know, in my mind.
00;08;04;28 – 00;08;29;27
Bryan Shen
Is that okay? It’s going to shift to to attraction to girls. It will happen one day. So I just pushed that aside and I just continued doing my work. And I was more focused on, on doing well and having a good name put you to put it this way. And that was all throughout. However, it’s only some time when I was 27 years old then, I was an instructor.
00;08;29;27 – 00;08;57;09
Bryan Shen
I was teaching a young man, you know, as a pilot, and, and I my I noticed my feelings towards him was getting stronger and stronger, and I, I fought against it because it was just culturally and religiously not acceptable. But it came to a point where I don’t know how to describe it. But, you know, I was just thinking about it nonstop, to the point that I couldn’t sleep more than two hours and I couldn’t stay awake for more than two hours.
00;08;57;11 – 00;09;26;09
Bryan Shen
Well, it was bad. It was really bad. And I went into depression. Now, by the way, I never told him. I never told anybody what the internal, the internal struggle was so bad. It was so bad. Now, before that, you know, I was living the high life of someone with a high, status in society as a fighter pilot, you know, and I was, you know, what we call the Five Seasons.
00;09;26;09 – 00;09;59;02
Bryan Shen
Are you having career car crash credit card, condominium. A Singapore way of saying you’ve you’ve got it made, you know. So I’ve had all of that. But when the crisis hit, I was actually suicidal again. I didn’t tell anybody. I couldn’t tell anybody because this was something so unacceptable. I even thought of crashing the plane. I did, but, you know, somehow because we do things so much in, we practice this so many times.
00;09;59;02 – 00;10;09;04
Bryan Shen
By that time I had a few thousand hours of flying and after I landed, oh my God, I forgot to crash the plane. You know?
00;10;09;07 – 00;10;11;07
Bryan Shen
It was just going by, but.
00;10;11;09 – 00;10;12;24
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yeah, yeah, yeah, well.
00;10;13;02 – 00;10;39;28
Bryan Shen
But yeah, it was that serious. It took me 16 years. 16 years. Sorry. Two and a half years of this very dark crisis. I call it my dark years because I just couldn’t do anything else. But after that, it took me in that a 16 years just to come up and to stabilize myself. A lot of my path to stabilize myself was, was the only thing I had was my own faith.
00;10;40;00 – 00;11;02;15
Bryan Shen
In other words, I was born a Catholic, but I really wasn’t practicing until this crisis came. And when this crisis came and literally crawled back to church, I said, God, you’re the only one who knows what’s going on. You’ve got to give me some, some way out of this. Well, he did, but it took that long because there was no counselor.
00;11;02;15 – 00;11;29;08
Bryan Shen
There was nobody. There was nothing. But, I eventually left the Air Force because I felt that, it wasn’t giving me any sense of meaning, and I was really looking for meaning. And that’s why I chose to become a, missionary. And I would say only when I started this work as a counselor. And then I’m beginning to get these very religious people coming to me.
00;11;29;08 – 00;11;55;22
Bryan Shen
What they’re struggling then that begin to see. Uhhuh. That God has this plan. He’s, you know, said, this is where I want you to be this way. I want you to help. And I’m. I must say, I’m I’m ready. And I’m always happy to help someone who struggles in this way. Because I know how much the struggle can be.
00;11;55;25 – 00;11;58;05
Bryan Shen
An incredible struggle.
00;11;58;08 – 00;12;13;21
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And so in your work as a missionary, you encountered other people. Where did you become a counselor first? Or I I’ve missed the sequence here a little bit. You left the Earth, so you became a missionary?
00;12;13;24 – 00;12;51;00
Bryan Shen
Yeah, I left the Air Force. I became a missionary. It took about, 13 years before I became a counselor as a missionary. So I was a missionary for 13 years. So the first five years was just to learn the language, be with the people doing stuff. But, once I could speak the language, as I told you, as a foreigner who could speak a language, that is when the seminarians, even the nuns, they, the religious people, they would tell me things, the secrets, and they wouldn’t tell anyone else because I was part,
00;12;51;02 – 00;13;02;02
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Okay, okay. Yeah. Then so then you. So then you knew you weren’t alone in this struggle. That is that is that was that part of it? Brian?
00;13;02;04 – 00;13;25;19
Bryan Shen
Well, I never thought about it as I, you know, somebody was struggling in the same way as me. But I always felt that I’ve got to help them. That’s how I felt. I’m going to help them. But of course, maybe it’s just me and I. I’m very, you know, oriented towards solving problems. This just me. I just want to solve problems.
00;13;25;22 – 00;13;58;07
Bryan Shen
And because they would tell me this, my background history, this one. And so I would try to do. Okay, so this this is what happens here. Why do you try this when you try that. But of course I feel that I need to equip myself. And that’s why I went to study to to be a counselor. Took me about four years and, because I needed to kind of switch, you know, from all of my knowledge as a fighter pilot into a counselor.
00;13;58;09 – 00;14;10;14
Bryan Shen
But I enjoyed the training and, listening to people. I don’t feel any, drudgery in this work that I’m currently doing.
00;14;10;17 – 00;14;43;14
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Right? Right. And that’s how, you know, it’s an anointing from God. You know, when it’s not, it doesn’t seem like work in in the same way. Yeah, yeah. So in your case, what helped you get through this? Your faith obviously helped you get through this. And your experience of interacting with others and seeing that you could be of some help to them, some somehow, somehow you put the pieces together, in a way that was therapeutic and healing for yourself.
00;14;43;16 – 00;14;48;00
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Is that is that true? Is that how that went?
00;14;48;03 – 00;14;53;11
Bryan Shen
Initially, yes. Let me be more clear.
00;14;53;14 – 00;14;55;25
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Okay.
00;14;55;27 – 00;15;29;19
Bryan Shen
Doing something that is praiseworthy, doing something that people approve of so it can be mission work, it can be helping others. This is what we, as psychology will call positive effect. So a positive effect is is not really something that is conscious. But you know, it’s something that your brain is aware of. To contrast at negative effect is when someone says you’re good for nothing.
00;15;29;22 – 00;15;53;05
Bryan Shen
Puts you down being bullied. All this will give you a negative effect. So because my growing up years, I had so much negative effect, what I didn’t know was that this is the one that’s pushing me to get positive effect. And being a fighter pilot, yes. That’s positive. The fact, being a missionary. Oh, that’s positive. The fact that that’s all.
00;15;53;05 – 00;16;27;09
Bryan Shen
Well, in time. Now, if the positive effect is not enough, then there’s another thing that comes up and that is effect relief. Effect relief is anything that’s pleasurable, that includes drugs, that includes food, that includes computer games and pornography and the sex that’s effect relief. Now, because of my very strong desire to be upright, I really push myself to do, what is praiseworthy.
00;16;27;12 – 00;16;59;28
Bryan Shen
And that includes counseling. Somewhere down the line. I would put that about maybe 2015, 2016, 2017. Around that time, I realize that when I am true to myself, not just to myself, but to the people that I’m working with. In other words, when the bishop told me and says, could you be part of this team to help people struggling with same sex attractions?
00;17;00;02 – 00;17;28;10
Bryan Shen
And I my reply was that yes, I can, but I cannot hide the fact that I too have gone through this experience because the ones who are struggling will suspect they will, since they are all very sensitive people. So when I stood up there and gave all this education and I told people, well, this is also my background history.
00;17;28;12 – 00;17;55;11
Bryan Shen
And when the people says, oh, they don’t react in the negative way, but they, they said, oh, okay. And there’s a support there, I sense that that’s when the internal shifts really starts to improve. Really quite a lot. And I check with a number of people who also had the same experience and I would say also stood up and gave their testimony.
00;17;55;11 – 00;18;33;20
Bryan Shen
And then they were supported because of their testimony. That’s when the internal shift is really at its most so what I wanted to point out is that you can do all this internal work, but if no one else knows and no one else supports you for who you truly are, the progress is not that much right? But when the people really know who you are and the work you’re doing to to make that move to to do what is right as well as what it’s safe, that’s when the internal shift really.
00;18;33;23 – 00;18;57;25
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
The fact that your bishop said, yes, do this. You know, your bishop invited you to do it. And then you said, well, this is my journey to. And he said, okay, that. It sounds like that was also a very positive affect for you that would that would that be an example of the positive reinforcement from outside that you’re talking about?
00;18;57;27 – 00;19;23;06
Bryan Shen
I didn’t get a very clear sound, positive from him. I just said it and then no reply, but I went ahead and do it anyway. I it was the audience. It was the audience, you know, because I give so many talks. And when I shared my testimony and the audience, you know, they all give me the positive, feedback, that’s when I get it.
00;19;23;08 – 00;19;49;24
Bryan Shen
But I am helping a number of seminarians very thoroughly. And I said, the best way is, once you have done all that work and you, comfortable, you are sure that this work that you are doing is going to keep you in the correct path and safe? Now reveal this to your bishop as a sign of your commitment to do what is right and safe.
00;19;49;27 – 00;20;03;18
Bryan Shen
That’s number one. And number two to us. His support and the seminarians who’ve taken that step and the seminarians who get that very clear support. They have the best improvements. Yeah, they get it.
00;20;03;18 – 00;20;23;11
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
I can I can picture that. I can picture that. And if the opposite takes place you can see trouble. You know, if the, if the bishop shut you down or if the guy says, no, I am not going to do that, you know? You know what I mean? That that’s kind of a that’s a hindrance. Right? And the opposite of progress.
00;20;24;05 – 00;20;53;20
Bryan Shen
Let me sharpen the contrast. Yes. If the seminarian says Bishop and gay and then the bishop really condemns him instruction. So that’s bad. If the bishop said, oh, it’s okay for you to be gay, you know, just just don’t go ahead and be a good sign of, what, being a gay priest that’s going to help him a little bit is going to feel good a little while, but then it’s going to start petering down.
00;20;53;20 – 00;21;25;07
Bryan Shen
And the other problem is that’s going to surface again. So either way, which I see, it’s happening in the West, it’s not going to work. In fact, I would say and I’m very, very familiar because I’ve done work with over close to 60 batches of seminarians. The problem in the clergy is worse than the problem in society. It’s much worse.
00;21;25;10 – 00;21;54;04
Bryan Shen
Why? Because it’s hidden. And even if the person with same sex attraction does not act it out, but all the other issue is going to be up there. So what are the other issues? Yes, perfection is, very high sensitivity to what’s required. Emotional upheavals, lots and lots of problems, which I put it all in one slide.
00;21;54;04 – 00;22;10;03
Bryan Shen
In fact, in chapter three of my second book, I specifically wrote chapter three for not just the seminaries, but for countries like Malaysia and Indonesia.
00;22;10;06 – 00;22;18;13
Bryan Shen
And the title of the chapter three is The Non-sexual Consequences of Non Heterosexuality.
00;22;18;16 – 00;22;41;06
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And tell us some more of those. None of the non sexual consequences because I have a few in my mind and I’m I want to see how much overlap that we have. You just mentioned perfect perfectionism. Emotional volatility would you say is that what you’re. Yes. Is that a yes okay. And and and what else Brian. What it what are some of the others.
00;22;41;08 – 00;23;17;10
Bryan Shen
As I have explained. When the background history is, is giving a lot of negative effect, then you have the risk of all of these, including pornography and sexual acting out. But as I explain, if the root is the same, you also have this positive effect where anything praiseworthy, the top scores and qualifications and all of that. So in Asia there are many people with the same background history, but they don’t identify as LGBTQ.
00;23;17;13 – 00;23;46;25
Bryan Shen
They are very talented and capable in the religious life. But here are all the problems. So the first group of problems is high qualifications, recognition, always acting good, must show care for the poor and oppressed. Must have high position of authority. They get very upset when they are not promoted. Second, hyper vigilance, psychological hyper. They must always be perfect.
00;23;46;27 – 00;24;19;09
Bryan Shen
They’re very sensitive to criticism, even if it is just perceived. They cannot make mistakes. They cannot allow people to make mistakes. Thirdly, emotional dysregulation. They’re very prone to envy, jealousy, anxiousness, prone to it. But partner violence I have no no seminarians who are so jealous of each other and they take out, pen, knife and slashes other and nothing to do with LGBTQ emotionally manipulated.
00;24;19;11 – 00;24;43;04
Bryan Shen
If you butter them up and you just praise them, they will always be, for you. And they they are not able to be impartial and they cannot tolerate being less favored. Extreme swings of emotions. Now, I can tell you, I have asked so many people in religious life, do you see this happening? And they all slam their shoulders.
00;24;43;04 – 00;24;50;06
Bryan Shen
And this is so many, so many, especially those who are in high positions.
00;24;50;08 – 00;25;15;27
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And just to be clear on this, all of these things you’re talking about can be going on with the person who is not acting out in a homosexual manner. Okay? And so the, the, the precursor you called in the precursors, we might call them the further consequences of non heterosexuality. Other whether it comes first or comes or as a consequence or however you want to think of it, it’s a, it’s a kind of psychological package.
00;25;15;29 – 00;25;31;16
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And if you don’t deal, if, if all you do is suppress the sexual activity and you don’t deal with these, whatever the other underlying issues are, you you will still have the items on that list. You may still have some of those things.
00;25;31;18 – 00;25;44;23
Bryan Shen
The reason why I call them precursors is that these people who don’t act out, but they do have non-heterosexual. You will see all these in their parents.
00;25;44;26 – 00;25;49;17
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Oh, okay. Okay. Fair enough, fair enough.
00;25;49;18 – 00;26;01;10
Bryan Shen
So it’s going to cost. Yeah, yeah. Going across the next generation. And imagine imagine if they hide it and they themselves get married. It’s going to pass through next generation.
00;26;01;12 – 00;26;33;22
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Or if they become a bishop and they cause all kinds of problems in the men and women that are that they’re responsible for. Yeah. If I could just say if I could just point one, point out one other thing about your list, the things that you have on that list, one also observes those, those items in people who are not heterosexual and who embrace the LGBT label and who are acting out sexually, whether you’re acting out sexually or not, acting out sexually, this is still part of the psychic package package, it seems.
00;26;33;22 – 00;26;35;27
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yes. Do you think that’s right?
00;26;36;00 – 00;26;48;14
Bryan Shen
That’s very true. And it comes with a greater message. Why? Because. Because these are precursors. We have to look at what is God saying in all these things.
00;26;48;14 – 00;27;10;27
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
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00;27;11;03 – 00;27;17;15
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
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00;27;17;15 – 00;27;35;11
Bryan Shen
Now let me give you another example. China. In China, the government does not support LGBTQ at all. But I know people in China, they say there’s so many young people, yes, they can act out, but they don’t want to get married.
00;27;35;11 – 00;28;16;05
Bryan Shen
But they are gay, but they cannot say it. And with this, it come from it comes from this strive for perfection and it’s coming from the government, it’s coming from the parent. That’s why it being a precursor, it’s very crucial. And therefore I always say to when I’m giving the talks, I said, you don’t want it to start even in your community, but you need to learn that if you’re going to push your children for high qualification, high perfection, and, you know, in China, if you are an Olympian, Olympic, competitor, you can only come in first.
00;28;16;05 – 00;28;38;13
Bryan Shen
You are not allowed to come in second. And that’s the kind of pressure that’s going to drive a child, you know, to to concentrate. I don’t have any, emotional activity with my friends, you know? And, my parents is always criticizing me. If I don’t get perfect scores, it’s all going to cause that to happen.
00;28;38;15 – 00;29;00;24
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Do you know, we see this. We see this among Asian Americans, okay? People who have migrated from China or Korea or other places. But, but but there’s literally a thing in the US that’s called the tiger mom. The Chinese tiger mom, you know, the and it’s controversial, but a lot of people think, oh, that’s great. And some are like, way we go.
00;29;00;25 – 00;29;20;05
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yeah, yeah. You know, because that, that drive for perfection is that’s, that’s also a part of kind of Western hedonism. And, and kind of self. It’s a disorder of relationship to the self in a way, isn’t it. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s saying that I in order for me to have value, I can, I, I have to be perfect all the time.
00;29;20;08 – 00;29;45;02
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
I have to achieve. That’s the source of my value. And that’s that’s the spiritual issue right there. That’s the theological problem whether you’re gay or not, whether you’re acting out sexually or not, acting as actually that’s a problem right there. And that and it sounds like the way you’re trying to approach the the whole community, the whole seminary community, the whole, church community or what have you, that’s what you’re trying to get people to see it.
00;29;45;05 – 00;29;48;21
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yeah. Is that right, Brian?
00;29;48;24 – 00;30;17;17
Bryan Shen
Let me give you an example of the Malay community in Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia. Now, in comparison, the Chinese have taken off first. In other words, the Chinese are the one that get all the degrees and the PhDs and and rising up the Malays. Only in the last ten years, beginning to catch up. They are now beginning to see more Malays coming up, breaking the ranks.
00;30;17;19 – 00;30;50;04
Bryan Shen
But again, it is only in the last ten years that the Malays are beginning to see this LGBTQ problem among themselves. They never had it before. Or rather, the numbers are a lot less okay, so because they are Muslims, they are like, what’s this all about? And when I point them out and I say, no, when you abandon your natural ability to be happy as a family, you abandoned that to push your children.
00;30;50;07 – 00;30;55;11
Bryan Shen
This is one of the consequences.
00;30;55;13 – 00;31;25;20
Bryan Shen
And I said, you’re not going to have everybody in society. The country is not going to have enough space for everybody who has a master’s degree or a PhD. It’s not going to be enough. And by the way, China and India are having huge problems of overqualified young people with Finish University, but there’s no jobs for them. But they have lost that ability to be happy people, even though they don’t have a degree.
00;31;25;22 – 00;31;50;22
Bryan Shen
They have lost that they used to have that they used to have that. But that’s gone. Everybody is now congregating into the cities and the country. Sites are just depleted of the young people. Wow. So if you look at it, yeah, if you look at the whole it’s a much bigger picture, it’s a much bigger issue. And by the way, it also hits a buffering.
00;31;50;24 – 00;31;53;07
Bryan Shen
It also hits population decline.
00;31;53;10 – 00;32;13;02
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Okay. Sure sure. Yeah a lot of these Asian countries are in big trouble demographically. And we we look at it and scratch our heads. You know, what is going on. This is right. This is a this is a part of the this is a part of it. This is so interesting Brian Brian, is there are there other things you want to share with me?
00;32;13;04 – 00;33;02;14
Bryan Shen
Maybe this may not be the right platform, but maybe I just point out that we, I don’t think we can rely on the government or even in the schools, because many schools and universities say, no, there’s a political agenda either the government or independence. I don’t think we can rely on these to solve the problem, but I think people who, who have a faith, who are also politicians or in the religious, in the educational institutions, they are the ones who should really work together with the religious leaders, with the bishops, with their imams and address these issues.
00;33;02;16 – 00;33;40;20
Bryan Shen
Because I do believe that many of these religious communities and cultures, they do have centuries and centuries of wisdom, and they should preserve what is wise. You’re not going to have everybody right on top, you know, with the degrees and the PhDs, but have everybody who understands their position and everybody has their worth where they are and to enjoy their lives where there and there are people who are still doing that.
00;33;40;22 – 00;34;05;08
Bryan Shen
I just met a Filipino, and she came from an island north of north of Philippines. And she says, you know, is an island that’s being hit by typhoons all the time. But we are very simple people. We only consume what the land produces and we are happy with that. We’re happy with our food or seafood, our coconuts in our,
00;34;05;11 – 00;34;06;28
Bryan Shen
And I said, that sounds great.
00;34;07;00 – 00;34;12;07
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yeah. I, I and our families and and our families and we’re happy with her.
00;34;12;07 – 00;34;21;25
Bryan Shen
Yes, yes. Yeah. She she’s you know, she said. Yeah. She said when I was young I wanted to come to Singapore. But now that I’m saying I want to go back. Yeah.
00;34;21;27 – 00;34;49;23
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
You know, we have a lot of Filipinos in the, in the United States, and they’re among the best Catholics in America as far as I’m concerned. You know, I think the Filipino people are beautiful people. But but I wanted to comment on what you said earlier, part of the Christian tradition and part of the Christian wisdom, but especially on the Catholic side, which is universal, you know, the the different Protestant groups, they can’t be universal in quite the same way that the Catholic Church understands itself to be.
00;34;49;26 – 00;35;12;29
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And humility has always been a huge part of the Christian walk. Right. And Roman culture, Greg, the Greco Roman culture, which we’re all obsessed with in the West, you know, the Greco Roman culture, they had no place for humility. They had no use for humility. This is something that was uniquely, that uniquely Christian. But what humility does not mean humiliation.
00;35;12;29 – 00;35;31;07
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
It means having a right understanding of yourself in relation to others, you know, and that you’re not the center of the world. You don’t have to be perfect. Perfection is not even that kind of perfection is not right. You know when when Jesus says, be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect. He’s not talking about your educational level.
00;35;31;07 – 00;35;58;28
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
You know, he’s talking about a different form of of interior perfection, you know? So Catholicism has a lot to offer. And, I’m encouraged to hear that you are in communication with the seminaries and that there are people who, you know, you’re seeing the problems up close, very up close and but fine, finally great problems. But but the fact that people are responding to what you’re saying is the sign of hope.
00;35;59;03 – 00;36;24;10
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Somebody over there wants to hear what you have to say. You know, they’re not all turning up their nose at you, you know, because the the bishop could be well, the bishop, in a sense, the bishop is the analogy to the father of the family. And so that chart that you showed us earlier, if the father of the family of the seminary, if he is all, perfect and don’t mess with me, that’s a problem.
00;36;24;10 – 00;36;37;20
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And if he’s all, I’m ready to learn and I’m ready to help, that’s a benefit. And I don’t know, I’m just I’m just spinning off what you said here, Brian. Does that sound right to you? What I just said?
00;36;37;22 – 00;37;06;18
Bryan Shen
Oh, yes. Yes. I’ve spoken to many rectors of the seminary. I know when the rector is a good man. Right? I do, and I know when the rector is not wanting to talk about this issue because he himself has called whatever called undeclared non heterosexuality. And there are many there are many up there. I do want to say something about humility as you touched upon it.
00;37;06;20 – 00;37;38;01
Bryan Shen
Now, this is something I realize that the very first commandment in the Bible is God saying to Adam and Eve, do not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That’s the first commandment. Now what I begin to see in every where is that what I say is right? You must follow. And many parents are doing that to their children, and that’s causing harm.
00;37;38;03 – 00;38;01;25
Bryan Shen
If I may use the parable of the unforgiving seven, where the master forgave him, and then he went out when he was in forgiving to the other servants, because he went out asking for all the, the people who owe him money. But here’s the greater explanation of that parable. When the servant said to the master, give me time, I’ll pay you back everything.
00;38;01;27 – 00;38;25;18
Bryan Shen
It’s the it’s his is a sign of his idea of what is right. And what is right is I will pay you back everything. The master’s idea is totally different. I forgive you a debt. Cancel it. Off you go. But the servant left, still clinging on to what he thinks is right. And that’s why he went desperate to get back everything that people owed him.
00;38;25;20 – 00;38;53;09
Bryan Shen
But he ended up being very cruel. So the moral of the story is, when you cling on to what you think is right, rather than being open to what God think is right, you might end up being cruel like Vladimir Putin is. Like many dictators are. But I realize many parents are and many people in the world today because of their education.
00;38;53;12 – 00;39;23;06
Bryan Shen
I think I’m right because of the political position. I think I’m right in enforcing what they think. They’re right and they’re causing chaos. So there you are. I think we’ve got to get back to a correct kind of humility, where we are now open and listening to what God is telling us. We need to do that because otherwise we are going to cause more and more problems, not just in our families, but also in our societies.
00;39;23;08 – 00;40;00;06
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yes, yes, I think that’s I think that’s very true. But one further point that I want to just draw out is the number of people that you’re talking about who are not acting out in a homosexual manner, but who are still struggling. And that group of people we understanding that group of people being available to that group of people being being willing to help that group of people, it seems to me that is a huge shift in the way we view this whole question, because in the West, those people don’t even exist.
00;40;00;13 – 00;40;27;25
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
If they exist, there’s one and only prescription, which is embrace the gay and everything will be fine, you know, and you’ve got a different path to offer it. You see these people and you, you you know what it is. I think you respect their struggle. You understand why it’s a struggle for them. And to say, embrace the gay is a it’s like a it’s like an easy out.
00;40;27;27 – 00;40;50;17
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Does that make sense to call it that. It’s like it’s a it’s it seems like a good idea. It seems like it will solve the problem. But the struggle itself is in is pointing to a larger problem. And you want to say, let’s go to the let’s, let’s do the work, let’s face the pain, let’s face the issue and deal with that rather than, you know, what we’re telling in the West.
00;40;50;21 – 00;40;56;21
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Would you just just talk about that a little bit? Because I think it’s it’s going to be a new thought for a lot of people.
00;40;56;24 – 00;41;39;07
Bryan Shen
Yeah. Let me just say that when I have this young man or young woman coming to me and pouring out in detail their struggles, their what they’ve gone through now, it’s not the struggle of what they are feeling right now, but the struggle of just being, trying to survive a drunk father or a mother who is so overbearing or being bullied in school continuously, you know, those struggles and those are the struggles that they share with me.
00;41;39;10 – 00;42;08;02
Bryan Shen
And if I were to say to them, or just embrace the gay lifestyle, I would it would be more than a slap on your face. It would be more than disrespecting what they’ve gone through. It wouldn’t at all be appropriate for me to say, oh, just. Just till I saw you be happy. Because what you have gone through is so sacred.
00;42;08;05 – 00;42;31;06
Bryan Shen
The struggle with that control so sacred. Not only that, I’ve got to help them make meaning of why God has allowed them to experience all these struggles that they’ve given us for. And this is what I say to them. Yeah, right. I have to say, I mean, you’re knows, you know, he it and he has made a lot of progress.
00;42;31;06 – 00;43;03;11
Bryan Shen
You know, he’s got his bishop, you know, really supporting him. And I said, now that you’ve got to support narrative, take all that step. Now you’re on your way. And you know because he was really truthful about what he struggled with and everything. And now that his his bishop says, okay. And I said to him, then you have to one day stand at a pulpit and say to the congregation, this is my background, and I’m here to help others who struggled in the same way.
00;43;03;14 – 00;43;05;14
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And what did he say this.
00;43;05;17 – 00;43;13;13
Bryan Shen
And he says, I’m I’m willing to do it. I’m ready to do it. And a say, yes.
00;43;13;15 – 00;43;31;04
Bryan Shen
We need people like this. We need them. Yeah. And they are the ones who will go greater into the details. For example, for him, whenever his parents fight, he feels guilt. And I have to work with him. He said, you know, it’s not your fault.
00;43;31;05 – 00;43;32;18
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
It’s not your fault.
00;43;32;18 – 00;44;07;27
Bryan Shen
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s not your issues. But I help him understand his parents own upbringing, no family origins, and then how to understand them so that when he is able to forgive his parents because he understands. I mean, it’s very easy to forgive once you know why. Then he is able to also pastor and give absolution and do all the work for the people that will come to it, either the one who struggles with same sex attraction or the parents who feel guilty right?
00;44;08;00 – 00;44;31;12
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
100%, 100% that guy, when he’s ordained, he’s going to have a long line of people outside the confessional wait to going to talk to him, you know? But but really, this is true. It’s very true. You know, that if if you want, once you embrace whatever it is that you’re dealing with, you know, whatever your problem is, it allows you to be more empathetic with other people, you know?
00;44;31;15 – 00;44;51;12
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yeah. You don’t feel as vulnerable. You don’t feel as threatened. And there’s just a lot of benefits to it. There’s one other thing that I want to pick your brain about while I have you here, Brian. And I know it’s getting late over there in Singapore. I hope you I hope you don’t keel over. I was in exhaustion.
00;44;51;14 – 00;45;14;22
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
In in listening to the various therapist talk about the different issues that they deal with. And again, I’m thinking of of, of Doctor Floyd Godfrey. I’m thinking of Andrew Rodriguez. I’m thinking of our friends at desert, Desert Stream, Living Waters. What I see them talking about is that, well, Desert Stream is a really good example because.
00;45;14;24 – 00;45;38;14
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
People think of them as being somebody that helps people with same sex attraction, but really only about a third of their participants are people who are dealing with same sex attraction. Other people are also dealing with, sex addiction or pornography addiction, other forms of sexual issues. And what I’m what I think I’m learning, and this is what I want your opinion about.
00;45;38;16 – 00;46;01;23
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
I think I’m hearing from these different, ministries and, and therapists that all of these kind of issues of sexual, if I could call it sexual brokenness, they have common origins or they have a lot of overlap in them. They’re not exactly the same, but they have some commonalities. And that’s why Desert Stream can have a program that, you know, all these different kind of people go to.
00;46;01;23 – 00;46;16;00
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And, and evidently benefit from, talk us through that part of it. You know, maybe your issue isn’t same sex attraction. Maybe it’s something else. How does that fit together in your mind? Brain?
00;46;16;02 – 00;46;52;00
Bryan Shen
It it perfectly makes sense. If you remember the diagram I was showing you about negative effect and positive effect. And if positive effect is not enough, they will go for effect relief and effect relief doesn’t necessarily have to be sexual. It can be drugs, it can be addiction, it can be overeating. Even, any form of pleasure. So yes, we do have clients who come in and they say, no, no, no, no, I don’t have problems with same sex attraction, but I have problems with pornography.
00;46;52;07 – 00;47;15;25
Bryan Shen
I, I have problems with all these issues and all that. But if you track back and what’s causing the negative effect and then you see the same thing, okay, you see the, the father is always, you know, beating up the child that the girl is been negative. The only difference is that they find it effective as a teenager with friends of the same sex.
00;47;15;28 – 00;47;45;12
Bryan Shen
In other words, you know, they they, they may be doing something rebellious, but they’re rebellious with boys. Boys with boys, girls and girls. So let me give you a perfect example. I have a seminarian who has an identical twin, identical one had same sex attraction. One does not. And the one. Yeah, who has same tension.
00;47;45;18 – 00;47;53;09
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Hold on. Wait a minute. I thought it was genetic. How does it. Okay. Sorry. Go ahead. Yeah.
00;47;53;12 – 00;48;20;07
Bryan Shen
Right. So. And this seminarian, you know, he has similar attraction and he came to the seminary, is asking for help, but he. This is a very long story. But anyway, while helping him halfway, he asked me and in his his question was, was so, you know, like it’s a burning question. He says, why, why, why does God give me same sex attraction but not my brother?
00;48;20;09 – 00;48;51;22
Bryan Shen
Identical twin? So I asked him, and I know his background because, you know, he’s given me all the background history. When he was around seven, eight, nine years old, you know, his village boys, they were all the bad heads, the bad guys, and he was sodomites. He was he was sexually penetrated from the rear. And and he felt dirty so bad he he pull away from them and, you know, that’s why he he could only be with the girls because he felt safe with the girls.
00;48;51;22 – 00;49;22;12
Bryan Shen
He went to the seminary and all of that. So I asked him, was your brother also abused, sodomized? He said, yes. Yes, he was. And I said, an asset. How did your brother take it? Oh, he answered it. It’s like, you know, being one of the boys. And after that, you know, he went with the boys into gangs, into glue sniffing, into drugs.
00;49;22;14 – 00;49;52;24
Bryan Shen
And I said, okay, your brother doesn’t have same sex attraction because he was with the boys all the time. He had same sex affiliation. Yes. It was conditioned by the other boys, but the boys were not good. You you pull away from them because you didn’t like them. You know what was his answer? When he fully understand, he says, in that case, I prefer to be where I am.
00;49;52;27 – 00;50;08;06
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yeah, yeah, right. Because, God, you could say, God the brother could. The twin brother could say, why did God afflict me with the drug addiction or or whatever, you know, you could say that to that’s really interesting that he reacted that way. That’s a very interesting story.
00;50;08;06 – 00;50;21;19
Bryan Shen
Yes, yes. And you can see the root is the same. So the other person comes to me. Yeah. The record I’ve got, I’ve got this addiction problem, I’ve got this problem and all that. But the root is the same.
00;50;21;22 – 00;50;37;27
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
That’s so interesting. That’s very interesting. Yeah. So Brian we’ve been, we’ve been together here for a while. We had a great time in Poland by the way. I want to just tell everybody about the organization that in fact you’re since you’re on the board of the ATCC, I think we should take a minute to talk about that organization.
00;50;37;29 – 00;50;56;25
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
It’s called the International Foundation for Therapeutic and Counseling Choice. I found out about it through Laura Haynes some years ago. Laura Haynes reached out to me because she knew I was concerned about the sexual revolution, and I had honestly, I’m going to tell you, Brian, when she came to me and started talking to me, I had no idea what she was talking about.
00;50;56;25 – 00;51;18;18
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
I didn’t know anything about the counseling problems. You know, the counseling freedom issue and all of that. But because of the research Father Solis has done, they have invited him to speak, and now they’ve invited me to speak and so on. But why don’t you explain to people what this organization is and what its goals are? In case there are therapists who’ve watched this long into the
00;51;18;18 – 00;51;22;22
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
program and they might want to be become part of what you guys are doing.
00;51;22;24 – 00;51;50;22
Bryan Shen
Well, I was introduced to it by, Doctor Joseph Nicolosi, know, in 2017. Yeah. So I too had no idea what it was. So I went, I was the son, conference, and it was held in Slovakia, and I thought I would be meeting just about 30 therapists, but. Oh, my gosh, that was right. 200. And I was the only one from Asia.
00;51;50;23 – 00;52;25;07
Bryan Shen
It. So I learned that, it was started by, I believe it was, doctor Crystal as well as doctor Mike Davidson. And it’s based in, in England and therefore, it’s an organization that tries to put together the scientific, the pastoral as well as the, research the tree. So we’re here together as well as to equip everybody, and it can be anyone in the world.
00;52;25;09 – 00;52;58;26
Bryan Shen
However, because the environment is very Western Europe centric. So a lot of the response is coming from the Western Europe environment. So they deal with similar issues that you have to deal with in the West. And that is a lot of the gay activists. Conversion therapy bans, they’re all the same. However, as time went along, I began to realize that, they have very little exposure to what’s happening in the conservative religious communities, like, Asia.
00;52;58;28 – 00;53;30;23
Bryan Shen
Now I’ve got to move to, to plug in my, my battery before my computer dies. So I can’t continue speaking. Okay. So, I began to be a little bit more active when, they began to be to show more, interest to what’s going on in the conservative religious communities because so much is hidden in Asia and Africa.
00;53;30;26 – 00;53;58;15
Bryan Shen
So my role that now is to keep them a bit more aware of what’s going on, especially in, these hidden people, you know, and also the problem in, In the clergy, actually, there’s one more group of people and that is those who, what we call compartmentalization. In other words, state on one side, they are really normal people.
00;53;58;15 – 00;54;16;11
Bryan Shen
On the other side, they’re doing something they’re not supposed to do. It does happen in Asia. And for a wife to find out that the husband is having an affair with another man is worse than finding out that husband is having an affair with a woman.
00;54;16;13 – 00;54;17;15
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Oh no question.
00;54;17;15 – 00;54;27;15
Bryan Shen
Yeah, yeah. Yes. But in Asia, that wife is highly, highly pressured to keep it quiet.
00;54;27;17 – 00;54;28;00
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yes.
00;54;28;00 – 00;54;51;10
Bryan Shen
More so. Yes, I can assure you. Yeah. More so than the individual who struggles with same sex attraction. And that’s a new area which I’m beginning to find one that. So it’s it’s a even more difficult area to penetrate through. But yeah, because of the educational work we are doing, we are beginning to find these coming out over here.
00;54;51;13 – 00;55;23;11
Bryan Shen
So there’s much more deeper issues. And like I said, we are not really focusing on the LGBTQ narratives that that’s really in comparison, very, very shallow. What we need to deal with is the society, the push for perfectionism, all of these issues that affects even the population numbers, birth rates and and demographics, all these needs to be addressed as a whole.
00;55;23;13 – 00;55;26;24
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And so your role with the I’m sorry go. No finish. Yeah.
00;55;26;27 – 00;55;34;11
Bryan Shen
So that’s my role of the IPCC is to give them this, this broader view. Yeah. Coming from the Asian side.
00;55;34;13 – 00;56;00;15
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
The broader perspective that you bring to it. And you I think you still were the only person from Asia, if I’m not mistaken, the last time. And interestingly enough, just for the benefit of our viewers, we’ve been they’ve been holding these meetings in Slovakia and Poland and Hungary and places like that. Why in the former communist countries that are themselves no conservative, religiously conservative?
00;56;00;17 – 00;56;20;09
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
More towards that. And if they tried to have it in the UK, there would be disrupted and it would be, it would be a big mess. That’s right. We could probably have it in places in the United States. We could probably do it. But but because it’s an international group and, people come from all over, those, those Eastern European locations tend to work out pretty well.
00;56;20;09 – 00;56;44;25
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
But the this helps people have a bigger picture of what’s going on with these issues worldwide. And what we do here in the United States matters a lot, you know, because we end up setting the trend, for better or for worse, a lot of times. And, and so American viewers can be aware of that. So, if people wanted to find your work in particular, Brian, where could people find where can people get your books?
00;56;44;25 – 00;56;58;19
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
We’ve got two books here. One one is called The Uninformed Core, and the other is called Reaffirming the Core. I think you could get them on Amazon. Is there someplace else that people can get these things from you?
00;56;58;22 – 00;57;25;04
Bryan Shen
Well, we have, thanks to you. I have given my, help to to go ahead and get it on Amazon in America. So it will be available in the Americas and in America very soon. Okay. But to the Ruth Institute, I want to say that I can as an author, I can actually set authorize that these books be sent to you at a lower price so that you can sell it in your I.
00;57;25;07 – 00;57;26;06
Bryan Shen
Oh.
00;57;26;08 – 00;57;44;25
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Okay. Well, good to know. That’s good. We’ll talk about that offline. Make a little business. So that because your people are my people I mean this is what Ruth says in the Bible. Your people are my people. Your God is my God. So it’s all good. And anybody who follows Brian is going to be interested in the Ruth Institute.
00;57;44;25 – 00;57;57;25
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And I think many of the Ruth Institute followers are going to be very happy to know about you and your work, Brian. And so that’s why I’m so glad to have you on the show. So, do you have any final words for the Roof Institute followers?
00;57;57;27 – 00;58;19;09
Bryan Shen
Wow, thank you very much for having me on the show. You know, on the other side of the world, I have very little exposure and knowledge of what’s happening. And I really didn’t know much about what the Roof Institute was doing until your invitation. And I read it and I said, oh, okay, this is an institute that I would be very happy to support, too.
00;58;19;16 – 00;58;22;23
Bryan Shen
So thank you very much for inviting me.
00;58;22;26 – 00;58;28;27
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
I want to thank you so much for being my guest on today’s episode of The Doctor J. Show.
00;58;28;29 – 00;58;42;22
Bryan Shen
Okay.
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About the Ruth Institute
The Ruth Institute is a global non-profit organization, leading an international interfaith coalition to defend the family and build a civilization of love.
Jennifer Roback Morse has a Ph.D. in economics and has taught at Yale and George Mason University. She is the author of The Sexual State and Love and Economics – It Takes a Family to Raise a Village.
To get more information or schedule an interview with Dr. Morse, contact media@ruthinstitute.org.
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