Brayn Shen on the Dr. J Show | Part 1
In this episode of The Dr. J Show, Bryan Shen—a professional counselor and independent Catholic missionary—shares his powerful journey from military fighter pilot to frontline advocate for truth and healing. Drawing from his extensive experience across Asia, Bryan sheds light on the often-overlooked challenges faced by individuals with same-sex attraction in conservative religious cultures. He underscores the need for compassion rooted in truth, and the critical role of spiritual and psychological support. As a representative of the International Foundation for Therapeutic and Counseling Choice, Bryan offers firsthand insight into how cultural and religious values can both challenge and guide individuals toward authentic healing. This episode is a compelling reminder that identity, when grounded in faith and reason, leads to true freedom.
Bryan Shen is a professional counsellor and registered supervisor with the Singapore Association for Counselling (SAC) and a lay Catholic missionary since 1997. Fluent in English and Thai, he has counselled seminarians and religious communities across Southeast Asia.
00:00 Understanding Same-Sex Attraction in Different Cultures
03:24 Brian Shen’s Journey and Professional Background
08:07 Cultural Differences in Addressing Same-Sex Attraction
11:27 Not wanting the LGBTQ Identity and the Risks of Coming Out
16:02 Exploring the Origins & Contributing Factors of Same-Sex Attraction
23:49 The Role of Family Dynamics and Emotional Conditioning
29:31 Empowering Communities to Support Hidden Individuals
40:23 Navigating Parental Perspectives in LGBTQ Issues
45:59 Education as a Catalyst for Change
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Transcript
(Please note the transcript is auto-generated and likely contains errors)
00;00;00;00 – 00;00;28;07
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
In Western countries, Christians are used to thinking of homosexuality as something that’s widely accepted and promoted, and people who experience unwanted same sex attraction sometimes have trouble finding a therapist who could help them. In many parts of Asia and Africa, people who experience unwanted same sex attraction also have trouble finding therapy. But for a different reason. Their societies view homosexuality as sinful and anti-social.
00;00;28;09 – 00;00;46;03
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
People don’t even want to talk about the subject. And so many men and women who experience persistent same sex attraction, struggle and feel alone and isolated. Hi everyone. I’m Doctor Jennifer Roback Morris, founder and president of the Ruth Institute, an international interfaith coalition
00;00;46;03 – 00;00;52;17
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
to defend the family and build a civilization of love. Today’s guest has taught me a lot.
00;00;52;19 – 00;01;27;03
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Bryan Shen is a professional counselor and supervisor registered in Singapore. He is also an independent Catholic missionary since 1997. He’s done counseling work with seminarians and religious people in Singapore, Thailand, Malaysia, Vietnam and the Philippines. In both English and Thai, leaders of conservative religious communities, both Christian and Muslim, seek him out to provide educational talks to remove misconceptions and prejudices around non heterosexuality.
00;01;27;05 – 00;01;54;29
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Bryan is a board member of the Fctc, which is the International Foundation for Therapeutic and Counseling choice. I first met him at a meeting of the Fctc last fall in Poland. Brian is the author of two books in which he spells out his therapeutic approach. In my opinion, his insights are very helpful in walking the fine line between helping the person without endorsing all of their feelings and behaviors.
00;01;55;01 – 00;02;00;20
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
If this is a line that you’re trying to walk, I think you’re going to be fascinated by this conversation.
00;02;00;20 – 00;02;23;00
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
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00;02;23;07 – 00;02;29;11
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
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00;02;29;11 – 00;02;33;20
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Bryan Shen, Welcome to the doctor J. Show.
00;02;33;23 – 00;02;37;16
Bryan Shen
Thank you very much and very excited to be here.
00;02;37;19 – 00;02;59;20
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Well that’s great. You and I met at a meeting of the International Foundation for Therapeutic and Counseling Choice, and you gave a very fascinating presentation and based in part on the two books which you also gave me, that I have in my lap. That will be the way that we’ll be talking about. And you, your, your therapist, your counseling oriented kind of a person.
00;02;59;20 – 00;03;24;00
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
You’re not a numbers person like we are over here. And you’ve become really kind of an expert on exploring the origins of same sex attraction. And, you know, you’ve accumulated a lot of information. So first of all, let’s start by if you would tell people just a little bit about your professional background, including where you live, and some of the countries in which you’ve worked.
00;03;24;03 – 00;03;40;11
Bryan Shen
Okay. So I am a Singaporean, and, I grew up in Singapore. My first profession actually is as a fighter pilot. I was flying jet pilot, jet planes for 16 years.
00;03;40;13 – 00;03;42;11
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
What?
00;03;42;14 – 00;04;09;03
Bryan Shen
Yeah, that’s, surprising part. And I had no idea I would end up doing this work. But God has his ways. Well, the year ten of my career in the Air Force, I had a personal crisis. It was really bad. I’ll tell you more about it later. But that caused me to do a really big shift.
00;04;09;05 – 00;04;39;07
Bryan Shen
And, on in 16 year, I left the Air Force and I became a lay missionary, Catholic, but entirely independent. And I chose Thailand. And I went to Thailand. And after five years of, being able to speak Thai, I realized that, for the Thai people, if you can speak Thai but you’re not Thai, they would tell you all the secrets that they wouldn’t even tell their closest friend.
00;04;39;09 – 00;05;14;10
Bryan Shen
So I began to realize that I think I really need to get myself, equipped as, say, you know, to be able to listen to them and, so in 20, oh six, 27, I began to do, a course in Australia. And then in 2010, I was, qualified as a counselor. And since then, for the next 15 years, I started off as being the first fully qualified counselor in Thailand who could speak both English and Thai.
00;05;14;13 – 00;05;43;09
Bryan Shen
And now, very quickly, I was asked by the Catholic Church to help in the seminaries, because they needed, they needed someone who is fully trained who also could help the seminarians consider, you know, is this the right vocation? Is this the right path? And in that space, they would tell me things that they wouldn’t tell the, rectors and the people who were running the seminary.
00;05;43;11 – 00;06;06;04
Bryan Shen
And that’s how I began to really get into this work. These are very, very religious, young men who want to do what, you know, whatever they can to do what is right in the sight of God. But they have these feelings which they didn’t ask for, and they just couldn’t understand why. And so that started to work.
00;06;06;06 – 00;06;32;21
Bryan Shen
In 2014, the Bishop of Singapore asked me to be part of a team to help people struggling with this issue, not necessarily people who identify as gay and lesbian. So we I realized that the two very different groups of people, people, especially in Asia, who are, conservative religious and who have these issues, they very deeply hidden.
00;06;32;24 – 00;06;58;26
Bryan Shen
And since then, you know, that’s my work. And then I began to do, education because people need to understand that, you know, this is this is another group of people. These are not people who want to fight for their rights as gays or lesbians. And the more talks I give, the more I have these very hidden ones coming to me.
00;06;58;29 – 00;07;21;12
Bryan Shen
So these educational talks were the only way which they would come and find something safe. And, over time, I began to have more and more of these clients, as well as their parents. And then the church community. And so that’s how I got into this work.
00;07;21;14 – 00;07;44;04
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And so what I want to pause here and really highlight for our audience is that you in Asia, have a very different set of concerns than we have as Christians in the United States or in Western countries generally. Over here, we’re worried about what you could call the gay political agenda. And you are concerned about something quite different.
00;07;44;07 – 00;08;04;21
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And so what I found so fascinating about you want to was hearing you talk and now reading your books and so on. Is that that group of people, we have those people here as well in the US, but they’re hidden here too, because they’re being that they don’t want to be part of the pride movement. You know, that’s not what they’re about.
00;08;04;24 – 00;08;24;00
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
But they do want to talk to somebody and they want to be able to talk to somebody openly. So can you can you just kind of give our audience a feel for what the environment is like over, over in your countries, you know, in the how would you call it a traditional society? What is it really like for people over there?
00;08;24;00 – 00;08;29;02
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Just give us a picture of it, because I think, I think a lot of our people would be surprised by it.
00;08;29;05 – 00;09;09;16
Bryan Shen
Okay. Firstly, Asia is very diverse. So I need to make that very clear. For example, in countries like Taiwan, Hong Kong, Australia, of course, in certain parts of Singapore, you do have this very pro LGBT movement, especially among the younger educated. But in countries like Malaysia, Indonesia, even in many parts of Thailand, Vietnam, Philippines, the the number of people who are conservative and religious is much more very, very much more.
00;09;09;19 – 00;09;32;26
Bryan Shen
On top of that, you have this Asian preference for culture, as well as a structure of where, the family and the community is people have a much stronger connection with all of these. So for a young man to or a young woman to have these feelings, they don’t they they don’t want to lose their connections.
00;09;32;28 – 00;10;11;25
Bryan Shen
And therefore, the number of people who have these feelings and remain hidden because they’re so afraid of losing and not only losing, but because of the misconception of these conservative religious communities, is huge. The number of people who are hidden are huge. So there is a study that came out in 2019, as high as 94% in the Muslim dominated countries are hidden, and you have a very tiny percentage, just 7% of all with, these feelings, who would want to consider themselves gay or lesbians?
00;10;11;28 – 00;10;45;11
Bryan Shen
The rest don’t know. Now, if you look at the huge percentage of people with these, you also have a huge range of some who are cognitively aware that this is what they struggle with. But yours at the other extreme, where they cannot even accept that this is the feelings I had, and that’s in itself a huge problem. So if you can imagine a young man with these feelings going, I had to get married heterosexual.
00;10;45;13 – 00;11;07;09
Bryan Shen
But he’s not providing the the emotional and, the physical intimacy to the wife and same for, in religious life when there’s a lot of underlying issues. So the problems are hidden and huge, really, really big.
00;11;07;11 – 00;11;30;28
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yes. So, so let me ask you this. You started with a statistic, and of course, my ears always perk up. When are statistics, you know, 94% of what. And and it’s important that we have accurate labels and maybe we don’t have labels, but we maybe give us a whole description. This group of people, how would you describe them?
00;11;30;28 – 00;11;40;29
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Are these these are people who. Well, how who are these people? How do how do you describe them? And so 96% of what what.
00;11;41;01 – 00;12;04;16
Bryan Shen
Yeah, I think you raise a very important point where having correct labels is so important. So I would use the word non-heterosexual ity. So these are people with non heterosexuality okay. Now they are not exactly the same as people who identify as LGBTQ.
00;12;04;16 – 00;12;09;07
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Correct. The that’s your big point right there. Right? Right right right right right. Okay.
00;12;09;07 – 00;12;44;10
Bryan Shen
So yes, people who identify as LGBTQ, yes, they do have non-heterosexual, but the identity is so important and they say it out loud. But you do have people with non-heterosexual who do not want to identify as L og or potti or Q. So that’s the difference of that. So, let me use another n another word. For example, people with same sex attractions who do not want to identify as gay or lesbians.
00;12;44;13 – 00;13;08;08
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And. Right. And what strikes me when you’re talking is that you in the West, the, the pro gay activists would say, all those people are hidden in the closet and they’re prescription for those people would be, you just need to come out and be your true self. That would be the that would be their prescription. But that’s not the path that you’re taking.
00;13;08;11 – 00;13;30;06
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Okay. So help us, help us understand a little bit more about these people and why you think another path is you don’t want the Western path. And I think they don’t want the Western path is also what I’m hearing, that the individuals themselves, they don’t. That’s not where they want to end up. Tell us more about these people and what they do want.
00;13;30;09 – 00;14;04;21
Bryan Shen
Okay. Let me use an, a situation of a young man, let’s say in Malaysia or even Indonesia, because these are predominantly Muslim countries. Everything in the society, from the from the government to the schools to the religious organizations that they belong to, every single part of the systems around them would be against any idea of LGBTQ rights or lifestyle.
00;14;04;25 – 00;14;36;05
Bryan Shen
Every one of them. So a person with same sex attractions, he has to contend with that. If he comes out and literally he will be attacked, he will be hit. He has high risk of being abused. Very, very high risk. Not only that, there will be a huge pressure for him to be cured, to be, to be converted back to the norm.
00;14;36;07 – 00;15;04;27
Bryan Shen
And there are many, many unlicensed. You know, and, quack therapist who claim to be who can cure them. He will be exposed to all of this. So actually, it is much safer for him to remain hidden. I wouldn’t use the word closet because in the Western way of understanding, being hidden in a closet is. I wish I could come out and be happy as a gay man, and but I have to be hidden.
00;15;04;29 – 00;15;34;26
Bryan Shen
Well, yes, they are hidden, but not with the same desire. Their desire is to be as normal as possible, and they have. And one of the only ways that they can do so is to put up a front that I’m normal. I get married and normally, oh, I join the religious marriage. Things seems to be normal. And yes, he may be praised, but the underlying issues and problems still remain.
00;15;34;28 – 00;15;55;24
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yes. And another point that we need to bring up right here is that in the West also, people would say he was born that way. It’s unfair to not only to make him hide, but to say that he should change that he should become normal. We don’t even want to talk about normal. The idea of normal is itself oppressive, right.
00;15;55;26 – 00;16;18;24
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And so, I’m guessing, and I want you to I want to spell this out, but what is your theory, Brian, about the origins of persistent same sex attraction. I’m guessing that you don’t think it’s inborn, like having blue eyes or something, or being left handed, I guess would be a better, example. These are the examples that they use here in the United States.
00;16;18;27 – 00;16;31;21
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Being gay is like being black. Being gay is like being left handed. You can’t change that about somebody. And if you try, you’re going to really hurt them. So you must have an alternative. Theories. This is a good time for you to spell that out for us.
00;16;31;23 – 00;17;05;26
Bryan Shen
Okay. Thank you very much. Well, firstly I’m talking to very, very religious, young men. Well, it’s I started with that and then later I started, I started talking to the women. They have a huge motivation to cure themselves. And just that alone puts them at risk of agreeing or finding something that is not at all helpful to them.
00;17;05;29 – 00;17;34;14
Bryan Shen
They have that very, very high risk. So with that motivation in then and as well as in myself, I have to come up with something that would reduce that, risk. Okay. So we know I mean this is something all of us in Asia know. I’m quite sure many people in the West also know that if a boy is very close to the mother, not close to the father, he only has female friends.
00;17;34;15 – 00;18;09;25
Bryan Shen
He doesn’t play sports. His male friends doesn’t accept him. Okay. And he, he is very, very talented in certain things. And he doesn’t do what typical boys do. He has a high risk of what you would call gender non-conforming. And. And with that comes this same sex attraction. Same for a girl. We all know that. So many of these men who ask me and say they have this huge question, why, why, why, why do I have these feelings?
00;18;10;02 – 00;18;37;05
Bryan Shen
Why that God gave me this? Why that now what I have done is that because I’m trained as a counselor and I look for the background and psychodynamic training, I will ask them to give me a very thorough background history of your developmental years. So I do have a questionnaire. I ask them to write and boy, do they write a lot.
00;18;37;07 – 00;19;03;10
Bryan Shen
They give me so much detail because they really, really want me to find where is it? What is it now I know because I do have some, you know, who are gay and lesbian and they will tell me, no, I don’t have any problems in my family. But not these people, these in the seminaries. And I know that they will give me every single detail.
00;19;03;12 – 00;19;29;15
Bryan Shen
And you’re right, I am a student. I learn so much from all my clients. Yeah. And all that you read in my book is coming from them. Yeah. So from there I begin to see that there is patterns. You can see where, you know, what they are lacking with and all of that. And by the way, the more I see that there are very clear rules.
00;19;29;15 – 00;19;57;17
Bryan Shen
For example, when a boy is has friends who are only female now, his being with the girls doesn’t mean that he’s attracted to God. He just feels comfortable with the girls that the way a boy would feel comfortable with at the boys, but his attraction to the girl doesn’t mean that he is comfortable. Because I’m talking about heterosexual boy.
00;19;57;19 – 00;20;26;07
Bryan Shen
So when this seminarian comes to me and he says, I’ve got this issue, I’m very comfortable with girls. And I said, well, it’s time for you to be comfortable with the boys. No, I’ve never been comfortable with the boys. Okay. But when I give the education to the whole group of them, and then when everybody in the seminary understands when there is this, they put away the prejudices they put away and they fully understand that.
00;20;26;07 – 00;20;54;13
Bryan Shen
Okay, so he is effeminate, but okay, we are here to help him. And then very slowly, he gets comfortable with the other boys because the other boys are not bullying him. They’re not giving in names. Even though he’s not so good in sports, they are still very good in. And that’s when you see this very gentle shift. Now, I do not emphasize on the shifts by emphasizing what needs to be done.
00;20;54;15 – 00;21;15;29
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Right, right, right. So everything you’re saying to me is consistent with what I’m hearing from therapists in the West who deal with these issues. Right. And you know who I’m talking about? I’ve had Doctor Floyd Godfrey on this show and, Andrew Rodriguez on this show. And, you know, if you’re just a number of these, people who specialize in this area, they see the same patterns.
00;21;15;29 – 00;21;43;28
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And that tells us it’s not simply culture. Okay, that that gender nonconformity is a risk factor or a red flag. You could say it’s, you know, that that a boy who is not athletic, a boy who is not physically gifted, who maybe has puberty later than the other boys. We see that in the US as a risk factor for same sex attraction.
00;21;43;28 – 00;22;12;17
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
You see the exact same thing in Asia, and that tells you that it’s, there’s a universal developmental template that somehow gets disrupted, that that steers the, the child into the into into this kind of confusing feelings so that I feel like that’s an important point. Yeah. Do you feel a kinship with these Western therapists who are coming to similar conclusions based on a kind of different social setting?
00;22;12;19 – 00;22;28;25
Bryan Shen
Well, yes, and more than that, you know, when I first met the doctor, Godfrey and I’m listening to him and I went, oh my goodness, I have never heard you. You know, you’re on the other side of the world. And yet we come to the same conclusion. Just unbelievable.
00;22;28;27 – 00;23;05;05
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Right? That’s right. And the conclusions you’re coming to today are basically the same kind of observations that the Freudian guys observed in the 1960s, before this was, before you were before in the US. We got to the point we’re not allowed to say that is disorder and so on and so forth. You know all about that. But before it was ruled out as a disorder, the patterns that you’re describing, the gender nonconformity and the, the family dynamics, same kind of, you know, same same pattern being observed back then, being observed today.
00;23;05;05 – 00;23;27;08
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Okay. And it’s not these are not genetic things. Now, there’s a question that people will often ask at this point. So wait a minute, you say, I wasn’t born this way. Are you telling me I chose this? Now people say that in the West. I don’t know if you’re guys over there, you know, in a Malaysian seminary or whatever would say that you but you know this rhetoric, right?
00;23;27;11 – 00;23;37;05
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
How would you respond to that? It’s either born that way or choice. What what do you say to that, Brian?
00;23;37;07 – 00;23;43;20
Bryan Shen
Well, then I would, this is why I came up with this diagram, and I do want to share this diagram with you.
00;23;43;21 – 00;23;44;06
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Okay.
00;23;44;13 – 00;23;48;28
Bryan Shen
This is this. Yeah. It’s so crucial and important.
00;23;48;28 – 00;24;03;23
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And this will be a diagram that’s probably in one of your books I can draw. Yes, it is in the book because I’m going to tell everyone to buy these books, by the way, which you can get on Amazon. So even though he’s in Singapore, that’s print on demand and all that. And so you’ll be able to send it right off to you.
00;24;03;25 – 00;24;08;10
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Okay. So this is one of your diagrams from from which book is this Brian. Book one or book.
00;24;08;13 – 00;24;15;06
Bryan Shen
It’s book two actually. You see the bottom right. You can see second book introduction page.
00;24;15;08 – 00;24;20;18
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
The introduction page okay. All right. Very good. So explain this diagram. What is this about okay.
00;24;20;20 – 00;24;55;18
Bryan Shen
So over here, you can see that up to point a you have the early childhood attachment issues and experience childhood experiences and family dynamics. And at point A is the child’s first realization of his her her own non heterosexuality. So the feeling is of same sex attractions and gender is felt without choosing. So it is there is no choice at point A, but after point A there’s a choice.
00;24;55;18 – 00;25;27;04
Bryan Shen
Either you go to point B or point C. Now point B is when you find narratives and ideologies on the internet, you are born this way. It is natural, God made you this way, etc. and then you read up on the various feelings of people who identify as LGBTQ, and then you end up identifying yourself as LGBTQ. Now that’s at point B, however, you do have people who experience non-heterosexual T but do not identify as LGBTQ.
00;25;27;06 – 00;26;02;22
Bryan Shen
Now, if you notice in my diagram, the path from A to B is in black, but then from birth up to A and from A to C, it’s in gray because that whole stretch is hidden, or rather unknown. It’s unknown. So here’s the problem. Many conservative religious communities take B as a it’s a it’s a conflate of everything from birth all the way to A to B, and therefore you choose it.
00;26;02;25 – 00;26;44;19
Bryan Shen
Actually, no, at point eight is not chosen, but a selection from A to B. However, we also have to take in mind that even in Asia, if I look for information and the only information I find on the internet, then I’m still being drawn towards B because the path to C is there’s no information, there’s nothing. But here’s the amazing thing about path C, despite not having any information, the high percentage here in this diagram, you in this chart, you can see the high percentage of people who are hidden.
00;26;44;22 – 00;27;24;01
Bryan Shen
This isn’t in orange. You can see that, the conservatives that about one third. But in Muslim countries, Central Asia and Eastern Europe, the majority are hidden. So back to this graph, this diagram here, path C, despite not having information that a high percentage of people choose path C and the reason why they do that is because they don’t want to to be disconnected from their families, their communities, their culture and their religious beliefs.
00;27;24;03 – 00;27;43;28
Bryan Shen
So we must help them. One more chart here, which is also in book two, chapter one, page seven. Yeah. The size of the circles, gives you an idea of how many people are hidden. If you look at the bottom left, which means, people are less likely to conceal their sexual orientation as well as a social structure.
00;27;43;29 – 00;28;14;28
Bryan Shen
Stigma is less. You will see countries like the US, UK, France, New Zealand. But if you look at the top right, if you look at the sheer number of people in China, India and lots and lots in Africa, we have so many people who are hidden and you don’t hear them at all. The assigned. Right? Right. And I do show this this chart to the religious communities, to the Catholics, the Christians, the Muslims.
00;28;14;28 – 00;28;36;19
Bryan Shen
And I said, I don’t think you do not exist in all these countries. You do. And you have so many of your people who are struggling silently and hidden in all these countries. And I say to them, please don’t be so bothered about the LGBTQ in the Western societies. If they one they are happy, just let them be happy.
00;28;36;21 – 00;29;02;25
Bryan Shen
But concentrate on those who want to be help. Yeah, want to know? Yeah. And the numbers are huge. The numbers are huge. And one last thing I would say I am overwhelmed with work because the numbers are huge and there’s so many people. Yeah, it’s not just the individuals, but also their parents, their community. Yes. Community leaders.
00;29;02;27 – 00;29;19;06
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
You know, the this is extremely helpful because you’re making it clear that that there that there’s more than one path. That’s the point. And that that decision point. Am I going to am I going to I how am I going to identify myself? What meaning am I going to attach to these feelings?
00;29;19;06 – 00;29;41;17
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
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00;29;41;23 – 00;29;48;10
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
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00;29;48;10 – 00;29;49;29
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
that’s clearly a decision.
00;29;49;29 – 00;30;15;14
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
That’s clearly a choice. I’d like to if we if we could, let’s just go down the list of risk factors or contributing causes, okay? Because sometimes people if your mind is on the idea that this is genetic, that’s the idea that there’s one cause of one thing and that’s that, really, I don’t think any serious person can really think that, but it does steer your mind in a certain way.
00;30;15;17 – 00;30;49;07
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
These are contributing factors, not causal in the sense that smoking cigarets causes cancer. It’s it’s it’s a more complicated interaction of things that, that, that lead to these feelings. So if you would for Brian, just let’s just tick off the things. What are the main contributing causes you’ve mentioned already? Gender nonconformity and then being bullied about it. And that’s got to be a huge problem in these countries where the whole society is organized around heterosexuality, and there’s no place at all for not for homosexuality.
00;30;49;09 – 00;30;52;25
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Well, what are some of the other contributing factors?
00;30;52;27 – 00;31;29;14
Bryan Shen
Well, firstly, every person is very unique and every person has a unique set of contributing factors. However, because I have so many of these clients, I really haven’t counted, but is over 100, and each one of them has given me such a detailed background history of of them. I would put all the contributing factors into just four categories to their categories, rather than the actual contributing factors.
00;31;29;16 – 00;31;59;24
Bryan Shen
The first category would be conditions that prevent a child girl, a boy from having same sex emotional conditioning. So let me explain that a boy needs to play with boys, and a girl needs to play with girls. Now, when they’re playing, their conscious mind would be on the game, on the rules of the game strategy and whatever that may be.
00;31;59;27 – 00;32;24;17
Bryan Shen
But the low consciousness that is not really, you know, intentional. It’s a feel of I’m one of the boys. I’m one of the girls, okay? And I belong and yes, I belong now. I belong so far. Yeah. So for the boys who are, let’s say, playing football, you know, just because the ball comes to me. Hey, I’m one of the boys.
00;32;24;20 – 00;32;44;22
Bryan Shen
I pass the ball, people take the ball. I’m one of the guys. Okay? So I feel male, right? Let me contrast it with a boy who is being bullied. He touches the ball and the other boys is. Who says you can play with us? You can’t play with us. So that’s just, you know, I’m not one. I’m not like the other guys.
00;32;44;25 – 00;33;08;28
Bryan Shen
Same for the boy who has a good relationship with the father. Hey, young man. Hey, Tiger. Are you going to be like me? Yes, daddy. I want to be like you one day. But if a father constantly derides the boy, constantly criticizes the boy, unconsciously he feels I’m not. I’m not living up to what a man is supposed to be.
00;33;09;00 – 00;33;40;08
Bryan Shen
Now, this is this, some of the factors that contributes to the first category. That means I don’t have enough emotional conditioning. That gives me a sense that I’m male and female. So that’s the first category. The second category of factors would be conditions that make me have more conditioning of the opposite sex, more conditioning of the opposite sex.
00;33;40;11 – 00;34;04;16
Bryan Shen
So, for example, a boy is very close to the mother. He’s attuned to the mother. He has only sisters. He is very attuned to his, grandmother and his aunts. Unconsciously, he is being conditioned by all the females around him. He doesn’t have enough males around him.
00;34;04;18 – 00;34;46;27
Bryan Shen
In the same way for the girls. If she is only surrounded by, men, and that her relationship with women is not so good, she doesn’t have a good relationship with the mother. Okay? And so she is conditioned in a different way. She’s good at sports, and I know of many cases where the female is so good in sports that one by one, her female fans, friends drop off and the only ones running with, other males and, you know, and she’s, she doesn’t feel, you know, and usually for females is much more complex.
00;34;47;00 – 00;35;13;16
Bryan Shen
It’s usually a combination of being unsafe with other men or feeling that being a woman. There are disadvantages. Or I have to prove myself more in this world of men, which is very common in Asia. So you have these two categories. The third category would be unhealthy relationships with the opposite sex. And this happens more for female.
00;35;13;18 – 00;35;40;18
Bryan Shen
So for example, for a girl to constantly see that men are unsafe because men constantly takes advantage of women, they press down on women, they beat up women. Again, these are all very common, especially in the rural areas of Asia as well as Africa. For the boys, there are some there are some mothers who would deride the father, deride the boy.
00;35;40;20 – 00;36;23;01
Bryan Shen
Not as common as female, but it does happen for the boys. Also, the fourth category, I would say, would be, if you understand the human brain, is when the thinking brain or the neocortex is far more active, than the emotional brain. So if a child has Asperger’s, autism, OCD, ADHD, and is always concentrating on studies, I have to be perfect and everything and doesn’t have enough emotional connection with her friends or his friends.
00;36;23;04 – 00;36;57;18
Bryan Shen
That’s the fourth. So these are the four categories of, factors. And each of these categories can manifest in different ways. And some people have said, in fact, this is stronger than the other. And the strength of the factors will determine how strong the same satisfaction is, how how much it is is in their and if it is very strong, the factors are very strong, then it can push the child towards gender dysphoria rather than just same sex attractions.
00;36;57;20 – 00;37;22;18
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And what I want to notice about every one of these categories is these none of these things are things that the child chooses. So to go back to your first diagram, none of these things are chosen by the child. Some of them in principle can’t be chosen by the child. You don’t choose your parents. You know, you don’t choose whether you’re physically strong and athletic and so on.
00;37;22;20 – 00;37;44;13
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
In principle, you can’t even choose it. So this is the I think this is a really helpful way of breaking it down so that people can see where that where the possibility of agency really lies, you know, where do you have some control. And I assume that in your therapeutic practice, this is what you try to empower people to do is to here’s a good terms with it.
00;37;44;16 – 00;37;48;02
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yeah. Okay. Yes. Give us some good news Brian. Give us some good news.
00;37;48;05 – 00;38;20;21
Bryan Shen
These education that I just gave you, you know, the factors and all that when I give it to communities which obviously have parents and, and relatives, they understand the way you do. But here’s the thing. They go, oh my God, there’s so much depends on us and it fires them to be better parents. It fires them. And that’s the good news.
00;38;20;23 – 00;38;33;18
Bryan Shen
Okay. And only when those who are hidden see this change in their elderly, in their parents, then and only then will they ask for help.
00;38;33;21 – 00;38;37;06
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Oh. Oh. Okay.
00;38;37;06 – 00;39;01;21
Bryan Shen
Never, never ask for help if they do not see that this is possible. If the hidden do not see that the parents and their leaders understand the way you just describe. You know, none of these is is, a choice of the individual. Yes. It’s only. When is it. Oh now you get it. Okay. Now I’m gonna ask for help now.
00;39;01;23 – 00;39;24;29
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Right, right, right right. Now let me ask you this. Let me, let me ask you this though, Brian. At at this point you just you just described the good news. The good news is the the the leadership of the community. The adult community goes, oh, wow. We get it now. We’re going to change. But in some cases, what I sometimes see is that the parents hear that and go, you’re blaming it on me, you know?
00;39;24;29 – 00;39;45;15
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And they become less willing, right? They become actually a priest here in the US who works with the Courage Apostolate. I’m sure you’re familiar with the courage apostolate in the United States that, that that, you know, tries to be helpful in this. This priest said to me, you know, some of the some of our clients, our men are participants.
00;39;45;19 – 00;40;09;12
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yeah, they think they were born gay. But the people who really, really are committed to the born gay narrative is their parents, because their parents don’t want to look at how they may have contributed to the problems. And, you know, if they’re if they’re psychodynamic issues in the family in the first place. Yeah. You know, and then you say, you know, guys, you should really shape up.
00;40;09;17 – 00;40;25;02
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
They don’t want to hear that. You know, that is not a welcome news at all. And so in that way it can actually make it worse. Is that something that you see. Do you see that reaction sometimes among the people that you educate sometimes.
00;40;25;04 – 00;40;32;24
Bryan Shen
Again, let me share with a diagram, which is also available in my second book.
00;40;32;26 – 00;40;34;00
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Okay.
00;40;34;02 – 00;41;02;24
Bryan Shen
So on the left, these are parents in conservative religious communities, and they are on a continuum right on the top. They, people who are open to receiving the education and they will listen. So the education has good efficacy here, right? So our talk and right at the bottom will be those parents that you just described where. No, no no no nothing to do with me.
00;41;02;24 – 00;41;28;26
Bryan Shen
I’m not the problem. So that that’s on the left now on the right you have the children. Right on the top will be those who have already identified as LGBTQ. This is me. I cannot change. That’s right. At the top and right at the bottom will be those who are hidden with conservative religious cognitions and the one at the bottom, right.
00;41;28;26 – 00;41;58;27
Bryan Shen
These are my kind of clients. Sometimes I have the combination of their parents on the left, bottom left, and the bottom right. So it is a combination of a. Now, when I do have a client who is coming to me, his how on how, he gives me all the background history and describes the parents and very often they will say please, please, please don’t tell my parents.
00;41;58;27 – 00;42;25;04
Bryan Shen
It will not work. And I respect that because I can see, yes, it’s likely. Right. And then you also have, parents who so in the situation of see so the parents come to me and say, please help me, my son has come out as gay. He doesn’t want to come back to its country. He is now staying in Australia, is staying in England.
00;42;25;11 – 00;42;58;26
Bryan Shen
He has got a partner and they’ve gotten married. Same sex marriage. Now that child will not come and see me at all because he doesn’t believe that he can change. But the parents had a crying. And when I do tell them many times the parents are filled with guilt and I have to tell them, please do not be hard on yourself because the good that you did not know you did not have is what you cannot pass to your children.
00;42;58;28 – 00;43;28;12
Bryan Shen
And the bad that you did not know was bad, but you grew up with that. That’s what you pass to your children. But now that you understand or all this, okay, make your own, restitution, your own changes. And especially if parents who didn’t have a good relationship with each other. And if they do come together, it’s a very good change, not just for themselves, but also for the other children.
00;43;28;15 – 00;43;58;00
Bryan Shen
The whole family actually improves. And the situation of see what happens is that the child on the right side, it takes time. It can be as long as ten years, but eventually when something happens to them, they always know they have a home to go back to. So yeah, situations see is when you can get them it, but it lasts maybe five, ten, 15, 20 years.
00;43;58;00 – 00;44;00;07
Bryan Shen
We don’t know.
00;44;00;09 – 00;44;23;14
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Just to clarify for the parents in that scenario that’s a long haul for them. And and then you can predict pretty much I mean you have to kind of tell them you know look this I don’t have an easy answer for you. I have a path for you. But I don’t have an easy answer. You’re settle down for the long haul.
00;44;23;17 – 00;44;26;28
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Does that make sense? Is that correct?
00;44;27;00 – 00;44;59;18
Bryan Shen
Yes. I so, so down for the long haul. However, I always give them hope. Okay. Because yeah I will say to them a child in same sex relationships it doesn’t last that there’s reasons for it. And I’m quite sure Doctor Sullins would tell you it doesn’t last very long and there’s reasons for it. And if the parents correct themselves for the fact for example, if the father has always been critical, criticizing the mother has always been nagging, and it all that stops.
00;44;59;20 – 00;45;36;16
Bryan Shen
In other words, the home situation improves when the child in same sex relationship goes into trouble, there is a higher chance that they will go back to the home environment. At least for, a place where they can call home and settle a little bit. Usually that is enough. Usually the parents will say, oh my gosh, I’m so happy to see my whole family intact for Chinese New Year, for the, you know, for the time of the year where traditionally all of us come back and even my last child comes back, that’s good enough.
00;45;36;23 – 00;45;37;08
Bryan Shen
That’s great.
00;45;37;08 – 00;45;38;22
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Right, right, right.
00;45;38;28 – 00;45;41;04
Bryan Shen
But usually, sometimes
00;45;41;04 – 00;46;04;29
Bryan Shen
they they go even further. I do have some stories where, the same sex relationship was so bad that the child actually reverts. Especially needs a girl. So situation. See? Yes. You’re right. I tell them to be in the wrong haul and I tell the parents. Do not isolate yourself. Stay in a church community.
00;46;05;01 – 00;46;06;14
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Okay.
00;46;06;16 – 00;46;37;23
Bryan Shen
Because here’s another very surprising thing in the church community, especially one where everybody is educated, I will have not just the parents and a top left. I will also have the individuals on the bottom right, and sometimes if there is a fit, if the race is the same, if there is a religious, the same, I will put them together.
00;46;37;25 – 00;46;48;03
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Right right right right. So you can help someone else’s child. You can be a kind of chosen parent. You know, or substitute parent, a surrogate parent or something like that. Yeah, yeah.
00;46;48;03 – 00;47;10;07
Bryan Shen
Yeah it works wonderfully. It works wonderfully. You know, the parents may say on a top level say, oh, I wish my daughter was like you. Oh, I wish my son was like you. And then the individual on the bottom right will say, oh, you are like the parent. I never had, you know, the father I never had.
00;47;10;09 – 00;47;35;05
Bryan Shen
But I would caution the parents, I say there will be a kind of a sword that pierce your heart, because when you see this individual doing so well, doing all the work, you would also ask why cut my son be like this? Like, right, my daughter would be right, right. Yeah, but but that’s where you know that that being in the community and the support of her being it really, really is.
00;47;35;07 – 00;47;55;21
Bryan Shen
It’s so wonderful to see. And now I want to add that, the situation of B, I don’t get this kind of, I do want and they just don’t want to see me after that because the parent does not want to work, the child does not want to work. And okay, I’m not going to force them.
00;47;55;23 – 00;48;23;21
Bryan Shen
Now, the situation of D, where the child is biologically the child of the parents and a top left, this is actually quite rare, but they do exist. If I give a good education to the whole community. Sometimes I do get a child and a parent coming together with the child tend to be quite young, around 14 to 16 years old.
00;48;23;24 – 00;49;06;02
Bryan Shen
And you know, the parent, the, the child. Tell the parent I’m struggling with this issue. The parents are, really, really worried. But importantly, because of the education they come together in the situation of D, the progress is very fast. When I say five, right. It’s six months to a year and then you see the improvement. So it is really wonderful to see for D but it is very I begin to understand that the education is so much more important is very important, especially in the conservative religious communities.
00;49;06;04 – 00;49;28;09
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And so if I if I may ask, what I’m hearing you say is that you create an educational environment for a larger community, not just for one individual or even one family, but you’re trying to educate the whole community to be supportive. Do you do one on one therapy counseling the way
00;49;28;09 – 00;49;40;23
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
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Jennifer Roback Morse has a Ph.D. in economics and has taught at Yale and George Mason University. She is the author of The Sexual State and Love and Economics – It Takes a Family to Raise a Village.
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