Are people really born gay? Is it true that no one ever changes? And what about those who feel same-sex desires but never act on them—what does healing look like for them?
On this week’s episode of The Dr. J Show, we sit down with AJ Benjamin—a faithful Catholic, husband, father, and counselor—who bravely opens up about his long struggle with same-sex attraction. Though he never acted out sexually, AJ describes the intense emotional and spiritual turmoil that once consumed him… and the radical transformation that followed when he surrendered it all to Christ.
With clarity, humility, and compassion, AJ reveals the family wounds that shaped his identity, the healing power of Our Lady and the sacraments, and how authentic brotherhood helped him rediscover true masculinity. His story will resonate with anyone—Catholic or not—who believes that truth and love go hand in hand.
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Transcript (Please note the transcript is auto-generated and likely contains errors)
00:00:00:15 – 00:00:24:00
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Are people really born gay? Is it true that once gay, always gay? That no one ever changes his or her sexual orientation? And what does that even mean to be gay in the first place? Hi everyone. I’m Doctor Jennifer Roback Morris, founder and president of the Roots Institute, an international interfaith coalition to defend the family and build a civilization of love.
00:00:24:02 – 00:00:50:02
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Once again. On the doctor J show, we have a guest who has made the journey away from an LGBT identification. His story helps us understand that there are many pathways into and many pathways out of an LGBT identity. From the time he was a teen, AJ Benjamin struggled with same sex attractions and lost through a long journey of healing, growth and forgiveness.
00:00:50:09 – 00:01:20:08
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
He found his true identity as a man of God and a husband and father. AJ earned an Ma in counseling with a concentration in Christian Counseling from Franciscan University of Steubenville in Ohio. He has been a public high school teacher for over 20 years, and an adjunct college professor for 15 years. I know you’re going to be fascinated by this conversation.
00:01:20:10 – 00:01:28:29
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
You.
00:01:29:01 – 00:01:32:13
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
AJ Benjamin, welcome to the doctor J show.
00:01:32:15 – 00:01:35:15
AJ Benjamin
Thank you for having me. It is great to be here.
00:01:35:18 – 00:01:53:15
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Well, thanks. You know, you reached out to me some some time ago, when your book first came out, and I have a note on it. You know that this is Doctor J’s copy that you sent to me, and that was in 2020. I think it arrived right when we had a hurricane. And then we had another hurricane, and then we had a flood.
00:01:53:17 – 00:02:17:01
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And so I’m a little a little late to the party talking about your book, but but your story is really timeless, your story of transformation and the detail that you go into in it. I think it’s going to be helpful to a lot of people, whether they’re Catholic or not. I think people will find it interesting. So let’s just start just start telling us your personal journey and and I’ll break in if I, if I feel like I need clarification or something.
00:02:17:01 – 00:02:22:29
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
But, you know who’s AJ Benjamin. How how did this all start?
00:02:23:01 – 00:02:56:06
AJ Benjamin
Wow. Well, that’s a that’s a loaded question. I guess it like like the The Sound of Music, it always starts from the beginning. So it’s best to start from the beginning. But the, that the long the I guess the long and short of it is, I ever since I can remember have always had, you know, same sex attraction, which became same sex eroticism in my teenage years, you know, with, you know, when the hormones started pumping and things like that.
00:02:56:08 – 00:03:25:02
AJ Benjamin
And, I very much, would have identified, I think, as, as gay, had I not had my grounding and my Catholic faith, which I always kind of had, it became difficult, you know, more difficult as my life went on through my teenage years. High school, college, and at once, I finally got to a place where I kind of hit rock bottom.
00:03:25:07 – 00:03:50:26
AJ Benjamin
And that was kind of in the middle of my college years. And I just really felt like I couldn’t do it anymore. Like there was just too much tension, too much, pressure on me personally, I feel like I was a communist, almost living, a double life. And that cognitive dissonance, you know, that that trying to maintain two realities at once was, was kind of pulling me apart.
00:03:50:29 – 00:04:14:06
AJ Benjamin
And, and when I was at rock bottom, you know, and this is so typical of, I think of, of Our lady in the Catholic faith and Marian spirituality often, you know, when Our Lady appeared, she says, you know, where at the moment when you think all is lost, that’s what I’ll appear. And she really did do that.
00:04:14:06 – 00:04:38:27
AJ Benjamin
She brought me all the way to her shrine in Fatma, Portugal. And, when I was there, I had a profound experience of Jesus and his healing power. And I was not healed that day at that moment. And my healing began there. But it was years of journeying with the Lord and growing in my identity as a man.
00:04:38:29 – 00:05:06:13
AJ Benjamin
That brought me to where I am today. When I consider where I’ve been and the transformation that has taken place in me, I, I it’s it’s almost surreal. Like I never would have thought I’d be where I am now then, you know, I’m just an I am so glad. I’m so grateful to Our Lady for bringing me there and for kind of reintroducing me to her son.
00:05:06:14 – 00:05:34:26
AJ Benjamin
That’s what she does all the time, you know? Says what she did, it came Cana. And it’s just always about introducing, you know, all of us to her son in a new way. Yes. Yeah. Know in that that’s really where it began. And then a lot of the journey, that I made with the Lord since then has really been, a very intimate and close encounter.
00:05:34:29 – 00:05:54:03
AJ Benjamin
And I had a look at myself and a lot of the dark places that I really didn’t want to see, and, you know, really invite Christ to shed his light into me and make me the man that he wanted me to be, not the one that I thought I should be or that he should have created.
00:05:54:05 – 00:06:11:07
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
So let me ask you this, though, because you talk about hitting rock bottom. You talk about how you couldn’t do it any more. In your book, I’m pretty sure that I’m reading this correctly. You never actually acted out sexually with another person, is that correct?
00:06:11:14 – 00:06:14:03
AJ Benjamin
That is correct. That is. Okay.
00:06:14:05 – 00:06:43:07
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
So here’s what I want to clarify because we have a lot of people who will say, well, he wasn’t really gay. The reason he transformed because he wasn’t really good. So there’s all this question you could say, or ambiguity about what it even means to be gay in the first place. Right. And so your story, I think, shed some interesting light on that because you, you somehow it was too much for you, even though you weren’t acting on the attractions in a in a sexual way, it was somehow disturbing to you.
00:06:43:07 – 00:06:52:12
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
It was disturbing to your peace of mind. It made it so you you couldn’t go on the way you were. Tell us what that was. What? What was that like for you?
00:06:52:14 – 00:07:16:03
AJ Benjamin
I was, I mean, I was really just consumed by lust for men. I think that’s really what it was. And my own insecurity as a man. You know, I never really felt like I made it as a man. Like. And I never in a man’s world, I never felt connected, you know, to to people of my own gender.
00:07:16:06 – 00:07:48:18
AJ Benjamin
And, so I eroticized that and, you know, there’s, you know, a lot of, lust fueled erotic fantasy, masturbation, that sort of thing. Yeah. Some softer porn, things like that. You know, just lusting after, man. Men’s bodies, you know, men’s personas. It’s almost like, I like, I wanted to, almost consume them. So that, you know, I could kind of make the pain of my own insecurity stop.
00:07:48:20 – 00:07:51:03
AJ Benjamin
I don’t know if that makes sense.
00:07:51:06 – 00:08:25:20
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Well, it it does make sense. And I think when you express it in that way, AJ, I think people can I think more people can identify with it. Okay. So if you say I’m gay and I and I perform these actions and that’s what it meant to me to be gay, you’re looking at a deeper aspect of it, which a lot of people have experienced, not around same sex attractions, but perhaps about opposite sex attractions or some other aspect of their life where they feel some insecurity and they’ve charge charged it with meaning is is what I’m hearing.
00:08:25:23 – 00:08:38:16
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Tell us more about that, because I think this is opening. I think this will open up the conversation for a lot of people for and I and I want to tell you, I really appreciate you, sharing this much detail.
00:08:38:18 – 00:09:06:21
AJ Benjamin
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Your point is very well taken and and very much appropriate lust as lust. And, you know, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve talked about this with, with, a lot of people and in some of the men I talk to don’t necessarily struggle with same sex attraction, but they do they do struggle with opposite sex lost in fidelity to masturbation, things like that.
00:09:06:24 – 00:09:40:03
AJ Benjamin
And yes, indeed it. We’re all a product of our own, our genetics and our environment together. So depending on how those two interacted, some men might work out their insecurities by, by, by trying to conquer women, so to speak, you know, by, by thriving, by, fueling that, that, that lost and it’s, and it’s, and it and that in that sense so, so where I was kind of looking for other men to kind of complete what I thought was lacking in myself.
00:09:40:09 – 00:10:01:21
AJ Benjamin
What I think a lot of men do is trying to, to look at themselves as kind of a ladies man, as a stud to complete, to, to, to heal and to try to soothe that pain within them. I’ve, I feeling like they’re not man enough that, that they don’t have what it takes to be a man. And unfortunately, in our society, that kind of stuff is encouraged.
00:10:01:23 – 00:10:06:22
AJ Benjamin
While I’m not wrong, I mean, it’s I, I well, nowadays kind of everything is encouraged but yeah.
00:10:06:26 – 00:10:09:29
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Right right right right.
00:10:10:02 – 00:10:37:06
AJ Benjamin
But back in the day, like it was even too, even though even though, you know, the, sexual experimentation and everything is, is encouraged, I think there’s still that, that underlying assumption that still that the, the, sexual act between a man and a woman is really the natural way to do it. And we can try to argue around that or dance around that, or talk about our feelings or, you know, you know, how we’re not comfortable or this and that.
00:10:37:06 – 00:11:05:07
AJ Benjamin
But ultimately, I do think that that, that, the, the married to God’s plan is the marital state between one man and one woman, and consummated by the sexual act which produces life. That’s that’s the basis of it. And the further we get away from that, I think we almost have, reaction formations against it, where we have to over justify what we do, you know, to make our to, to, to make ourselves feel better.
00:11:05:10 – 00:11:28:15
AJ Benjamin
But ultimately, I do think that the, you know, that that in society I think you’re still even today with, with all of our, I guess, meanderings, you know, and the wayward sexuality and things like that. I still think that still remains the gold standard, which is why it’s so attacked, you know, that that between a man and the woman.
00:11:28:17 – 00:11:50:27
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yes. Yes. Well, I mean, I think you don’t you don’t have to be a Catholic to realize that we are mammals and all mammal species. It is normal to be attracted at some time and in some way to a being of your same species, but opposite sex. You know that that is normal, that is normative. You know, without that, the species doesn’t go on.
00:11:50:27 – 00:12:14:22
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
So I yeah, I, I think at this point it needs to be said, heterosexuality is normal. It is normal. Statistically is normal. It is normal theologically. It’s just it’s normal. Biologically it’s it’s normal. And we and we do have to say that I’m interested in one question, though, because you it sounds like you had a pretty you were attached to your Catholic faith pretty deeply from the very beginning.
00:12:14:22 – 00:12:36:09
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And that was one of the things that that kept you from acting out. What do you think your life would have been like if you had had, a male sex partner or if a, older man had seduced you or something like that. If you had acted sexually with the person, and not just with your your fantasies and your masturbation photography and whatnot.
00:12:36:11 – 00:12:39:11
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
What difference do you think that might have made?
00:12:39:13 – 00:12:43:15
AJ Benjamin
I don’t think I would have ever been able to stop.
00:12:43:17 – 00:12:44:07
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Really?
00:12:44:10 – 00:13:03:15
AJ Benjamin
Yeah, I don’t think. I think I’d, I think I would have gotten darker and darker. I don’t think I would have been one of those, you know? Oh. I just want to settle down with some guy I don’t. Maybe I would have gotten there eventually. But I, I, I don’t see myself as going into a light place.
00:13:03:15 – 00:13:22:04
AJ Benjamin
I think I would have gone into the kind of that dark underworld, you know, that you hear so much about. And I don’t want to be stereotypical. I know that not all men who identify as gay go down that path. But I yeah, I think for me, it would have been a very dark descent. Honestly.
00:13:22:06 – 00:13:26:14
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And that’s because based you say that based on what you know about yourself.
00:13:26:17 – 00:13:43:25
AJ Benjamin
Correct? I know where my fantasies went, you know, and the thing so, so and I and had I had I acted upon that I don’t really see where I would have stopped. I mean, maybe eventually I would have burnt out, but it would have taken a lot to get me there. I think.
00:13:43:27 – 00:13:46:24
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And it would have been more destructive than what you actually did do.
00:13:46:25 – 00:13:48:07
AJ Benjamin
Absolutely, absolutely.
00:13:48:07 – 00:14:04:04
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Because what you said was that you couldn’t take it anymore. You know, it was already distressing to you. And so if you had gone down the path of whatever those fantasies were and I noticed, you know, by the way, this is a family show. But we always note that what we’re going to talk about so the parents know.
00:14:04:07 – 00:14:27:01
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
But you’ve you’ve said this very discreetly, you know, so I think a person could listen to it and not not be completely I don’t know what the right word is improperly stimulated, but but what you said, that you used a phrase earlier, fueling your lust, and you used it with respect to men who were who were acting like studs.
00:14:27:01 – 00:14:45:03
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
You know, that they’re fueling their lust and thinking that that’s the way to manliness in a way, that same concept applies to what you just said about yourself. If you had acted on the on your fantasies, it would have been a fueling of the lust rather than an attempt to tamp down or something like that. Is that right?
00:14:45:05 – 00:15:14:07
AJ Benjamin
Absolutely, absolutely. And really, that’s, and men and men are not designed to go together. I think it becomes, there’s a dynamic I think that, there’s, I think women have a calming effect on men. Men are by nature aggressive, and forward and outward, very outward in our actions. I mean, the, you know, even even our bodies are designed that way.
00:15:14:09 – 00:15:38:01
AJ Benjamin
All of our, all of our, sexual organs are on the outside. You know, we are designed to to move forward and go out of ourselves, whereas, a woman, all all of her, sexual organs are on the inside. And so I think that natural complementarity, I think that’s what kind of what Saint Paul say when he talks about not burning.
00:15:38:03 – 00:16:07:12
AJ Benjamin
I think the, you know, when he says, you know, what if, not burning with desire, because I think that that the sexual act properly ordered has, you know, the calming effect for both men and women. And I think if two men try to do, any sort of a sexual act, eventually, really, it’s not going to go well in a way, if it’s not with that particular person, eventually I think it’s going to it’s going to lead into places that it’s not supposed to go.
00:16:07:15 – 00:16:26:22
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And, you know, I had a similar conversation with a woman who was a lesbian for for a number of years. And she described the the kind of clinging relationship the two women would have towards one another and the neediness that they would bring to it. And and she’s now married and a mother of children and so on, comparable to you that you’ve been married.
00:16:26:22 – 00:16:59:15
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
I didn’t ask you how long you’ve been married, but you’re married. You have kids. And her conversation, this was my conversation with Christi. Jesse, her her description of what it was like to be clinging to a woman. You know, that there was something not good about it. You know, they were trying to achieve something, but. But her husband could so easily calm her down, you know, and that the desire to be, the desire to be cared for or to to to need and be needed, you know, he he moderated that part of her.
00:16:59:20 – 00:17:20:17
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
You’re talking about the woman moderating the man’s, aggressiveness. But the but the reverse is also true. You know, that the the man can moderate the woman’s other stuff. I’m just going to put it like that. I can’t tell you how many times my husband walked me off the edge of the cliff, you know, because I was all hysterical about something or upset or or what have you.
00:17:20:17 – 00:17:42:01
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And there’s nothing wrong with admitting that. I mean, I think our radical, individualistic culture tells us we’re supposed to figure this out all our all on our own and not be dependent on anybody. And that’s I think that’s foolishness, really. Foolishness. That man is for a woman. Woman is for man. And we in that mutual interdependence, there’s nothing wrong with it, or there need not be anything wrong with it.
00:17:42:01 – 00:18:04:08
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Of course we can. We can mess things up, everybody. I mean, that’s our species is that we mess up good things, but, but but the fact is that mutual dependencies is normal. Dare we say it? It’s normal. So let me ask you this. What are you. Do you have a theory? Maybe a general theory or a theory about yourself?
00:18:04:11 – 00:18:23:14
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
What do you think are the origins of same sex attraction, as you mentioned at the very beginning, that you, as long as you could remember, you had something like this. Some people would say you were born gay. I gather you don’t think you were born gay, but what is your theory about why you experienced it so intensely, so early in your life?
00:18:23:16 – 00:18:46:14
AJ Benjamin
That’s a great question. The, Yeah. No, I don’t think anybody is born gay or what. There might be certain things that do happen that would predispose, a man or a woman to be to have maybe, a man to have more, feminine characteristics or a woman to have more masculine. And that’s I mean, if you look around, you could see that some of us are, you know, we’re not, set a mold, so to speak.
00:18:46:14 – 00:19:07:08
AJ Benjamin
There are some differences. So. But there are. But as far as our being, like, a gay gene, I don’t think that’s there. That’s there at all. I think it’s much more a product of our environment. The back to what you said before when we were discussing, you know, the way, you know, healing insecurities.
00:19:07:13 – 00:19:31:13
AJ Benjamin
You know, I know I have a good friend of mine who, you know, when he talks about his, you know, sexual fantasies, they have to do with, a certain sexual act that that, a woman would perform on him to make him feel more like a man. Well, there’s no gene for that. That is just clearly something that that happened that that made him feel insecure.
00:19:31:16 – 00:19:54:22
AJ Benjamin
And he he figured, as the gentleman I’m talking about is somebody who, you know, actively works against that. But he knows that that’s where his insecurity lies. So for where stop for me is, my father, was emotionally distant and physically abusive, and that kind of closed me off to the world of men. So it was kind of like a it was a river.
00:19:54:25 – 00:20:26:06
AJ Benjamin
And when that river gets blocked that the water has to go someplace else, got to flow someplace else. So I think I kind of flowed, you know, my guess, my, my sexual energy flowed in a different direction where I didn’t understand and therefore eroticized men and overly idealized women. And and it has to it’s not just I don’t want to blame it all on my father, you know, with the, you know, even in my relationships with my mom, you know, there are certain things that I that were unhealthy that I needed to address as well.
00:20:26:08 – 00:20:51:21
AJ Benjamin
So it was it was an unhealthy dynamic that started it, coupled with, physical abuse. You know, and I’m not he was never really verbally abusive. That the physical abuse I probably abusive in, in, yelling, raising voice, things like that, but not like at me, you know, verbally. But it was, but that closed me off to the world of men.
00:20:51:21 – 00:21:08:19
AJ Benjamin
And I had to kind of remake my own connections, you know, to that world. And I think that’s a an important thing to remember is that, not every man is the same. Some men are to be more artistic. Some men are going to be, you know, some that doesn’t fit the stereotype. And that’s okay. That’s really not the issue.
00:21:08:23 – 00:21:25:17
AJ Benjamin
The issue is, do you still feel connected to other men, regardless of how you feel? Do you still feel like you’re making it in the world of men? You know, if you’re not sporty, if you’re more artistic, you’re more musical. That’s the that’s the main thing is to dad still approve? Is dad still the ambassador? Can you trust dad?
00:21:25:18 – 00:21:45:12
AJ Benjamin
That’s really, I think a lot of of where it lies. And then, you know, of course, if you’ve got the good relationship with dad. Relationship with mom should also be a little bit more in line. If mom’s got a good relationship with her husband, where, you know, the the the boy isn’t stepping in as any sort of, a pseudo husband, you know?
00:21:45:12 – 00:22:12:27
AJ Benjamin
Then that’s another, another big deal. So I would say to make a very long comment to your short question, I think that there was, you know, my myself, I think I had probably some traits that were not quite as what be considered stereotypically masculine. I had the abusive father, unhealthy relationship with mom, and, you know, that that’s kind of what drove me to eroticized male relation in relationships with men, boys and men from different.
00:22:12:27 – 00:22:35:24
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Parts of you get, of course. Yeah. You got three out of the big four that I hear all the time. You know, the big four that I hear, is a abusive or distant father. An unavailable father, a a, absorb all absorbing mother. You know, there’s something inappropriate about the mother relationship. Not stereotypically, male.
00:22:35:27 – 00:23:04:26
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
So there’s some some somewhat. What’s the term they use? Not gender. Typical, you know, somehow gender non-conforming in some, in some way. And, and the fourth one is sexual abuse, you know, the in some combination. I hear that routinely, you know, from all these interviews, male and female, that I’ve done, you know, family dynamics being a key thing and then some kind of abuse in some kind of gender to it, typical, behavior inclinations.
00:23:05:01 – 00:23:25:23
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And what I want to just pause and say is that none of those things are genetic in any meaningful sense. There might be a genetic component if you’re lightly built. They’re not a big, you know, bulky, muscular guy. Okay. That’s the genetic component. But that by itself, the fact that you’re built a certain way or that you have musical talent or something by itself, that’s not enough.
00:23:26:01 – 00:24:04:28
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
There’s another whole social dynamic layer of stuff that has to be that has to be going on. So, but just to affirm one thing that you said, there is no gay gene. I mean, there is literally no basis whatsoever anymore for saying people are born gay. That’s gone. You know, whether you’re looking at the twin studies, you’re looking at the genetic studies, you know, the inner you know, the hormone theories, you know, none of those theories can explain the whole range of things that we see under the umbrella of same sex or persistence, same sex attraction, you know, and your story is interesting because you didn’t act on it.
00:24:04:28 – 00:24:21:17
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Some people might deny that you were gay at all, but you’re talking to us about your inner life and the significance that you attach to things. And I think that’s an an important aspect to bring out. You know, you may have feelings and now the young people are being told, okay, you had this feeling that means you’re gay.
00:24:21:20 – 00:24:45:11
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Come join the LGBT club. Come be an ally. Here’s where the cool kids hang out. Okay? That’s a whole different environment from, the environment that you grew up in, which is more, you know, you need to save sex for marriage. And marriage is only with the person the opposite sex. You know, the the social environment is, is definitely relevant to the meaning people assign to the feelings once they emerge.
00:24:45:11 – 00:25:05:20
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
You know, the feelings emerge unbidden in some way. And so you’re not morally responsible for everything that pops into your head. But then that whole climate around it, people do have people do have choices about how to deal with it, and different things happen to people and so on and so forth. So I think your story is extremely helpful.
00:25:05:20 – 00:25:24:04
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
I think, you know, for helping people to illuminate the the range of different things, you know, that go into this, this whole identity. Let me ask you this in the course of your journey, did was there any kind of formal counseling or therapy that played a role in your journey?
00:25:24:06 – 00:25:53:04
AJ Benjamin
I did have some brief counseling. But there really weren’t a lot of options for that. You know, back in the day, there was not a whole the I think the, the idea that, you know, that you were kind of born gay was really quite pervasive. And I should state correctly, there’s nothing even APA itself totally backed away from that statement that said, they used to actually say that on as one of their official statements about homosexuality.
00:25:53:06 – 00:26:15:23
AJ Benjamin
Not anymore. They’ve really back that up to very something very similar to what you and I would be saying, that we really don’t know the origin of it. So they said they’re finally being honest about that. But what surprises me is the, I don’t see that transparency translating down into anything, especially with the hostility toward any type of therapy.
00:26:15:23 – 00:26:33:12
AJ Benjamin
I don’t see that in education. I don’t see that anywhere where people are actually there’s like, oh, follow the science. While, oh, well, if you’re following science, then you really should not be telling kids that they should be acting out on their desires. And you really should be trying to support kids where they are and to to lead, make virtuous decisions.
00:26:33:12 – 00:26:37:24
AJ Benjamin
So, you know that your point is, is, is right on task with that.
00:26:37:26 – 00:26:55:00
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
My question that I’m interested to know is from all of the people that I interview in this series, is is what role, if any, did therapy play? And it sounds like for you therapy. Therapy was not a big thing. If it was a big thing, I’d be asking you more questions like what kind of therapy was it? And you know, that kind of thing.
00:26:55:00 – 00:26:58:16
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
But it sounds like that wasn’t a big factor for you. Is that right?
00:26:58:18 – 00:27:23:24
AJ Benjamin
Yeah. Yes or no? I didn’t have formal therapy because I really didn’t have a whole lot of access to to particular therapy. Didn’t know a lot about it. But I did. I have a master’s in counseling, so I was really able to take a lot of those principles. And I did find some good books I’ve read, you know, Doctor Nicholas’s, writings I read, The Battle for Normality by, Vanguard Week.
00:27:23:27 – 00:27:41:05
AJ Benjamin
And that actually that book has a journaling section in it. That’s where I think I did a lot of my own introspection. I kind of did a little therapy on myself, and that journal was the basis of what eventually became the book. You know, I found it. Yeah.
00:27:41:13 – 00:28:11:04
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Oh, that’s so interesting. That’s really interesting. Yeah. I have that book on my shelf, and I had forgotten that it had the journaling section in it. And yeah, because that’s really interesting, because your book is very detailed about your feelings and, you obviously are a good writer. You know, I can testify to that. People that, you know, if you read this book, it’s a very well-written book, and it has a lot of detail about what you were thinking, what you were feeling, that type of stuff.
00:28:11:07 – 00:28:27:20
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
So you can’t speak one way or the other to conversion therapy or gay affirming therapy. You didn’t really have either of those things, but you did have kind of a supportive network around you. Am I am I is it fair to describe it that way, or how would you describe it.
00:28:27:23 – 00:28:50:24
AJ Benjamin
Yes. But I will also say that, although I didn’t have specific therapy, the theories behind all that changed helped me to understand myself and bring me to a place of wholeness. So I would say that if somebody is not in a position where they can get to therapy, I would still read those books and, and, and really look at what those authors have to say about the origin.
00:28:50:24 – 00:29:13:26
AJ Benjamin
And there’s a lot more of them out there now than there were when I was going through this. So I would really I would really encourage people that are, questioning their sexuality, sexual identity, things like that to really explore what other people have written. Because as you say, you’re going to see a lot of commonalities. And even if you’re, you’re going to see some differences, too.
00:29:13:29 – 00:29:36:20
AJ Benjamin
But there there’s a lot out there. And those theories do the restorative therapy and things like that about restoring the masculine image and that that’s where the, the crux of everything is, is, you know, in the the broken masculine image that’s foundational. I really think that’s what got me, foundationally where I am, philosophically where I am and spiritually where I am.
00:29:36:23 – 00:30:07:14
AJ Benjamin
Your other question. Yes, I had a great, bunch of guys, you know, when I was at Steubenville, there’s a household system which is basically a fraternity, but it’s built on spirituality. And that’s where I really, I think, rediscovered my lost masculinity. I started before that. I had met, once I started allowing myself to be open to man to good, you know, men who were walking, walking the walk.
00:30:07:14 – 00:30:30:21
AJ Benjamin
Christian and Catholic walk, I started reconnecting, you know, with men and then really having that group, which I have a whole chapter to those guys in my book about my experiences there, having that pack that, that, you know, that that, knowing that you’re part of, a group of guys just always has your back. That was very foundational.
00:30:30:21 – 00:31:03:15
AJ Benjamin
So I think I think there’s a lot of, men with same sex attraction. It’s very common, for same sex attraction, for there to be social issues. Like, there’s a lot of what they used to call the. It’s not really in the DSM this way anymore, but, like Asperger’s and things like that where, they just miss the social cues and men aren’t very good at that anyway, and so they’re not going to understand and be able to, you know, offer the type of support that some guys might need.
00:31:03:15 – 00:31:26:07
AJ Benjamin
So I find that that’s like a comorbidity thing with, same sex attraction. Is that that, not understanding the social cues in a lot of ways for people. So why? Well, I don’t understand. Well, you know, I try this, and I’m not getting. Yeah, I’m not changing my attraction. Sure. Not diminishing. And the answer might be, well, there might be other things going on that are working with that preventing that.
00:31:26:09 – 00:31:34:19
AJ Benjamin
And, you know, there’s not always an easy out for that, you know, either, if that makes sense or if you’ve heard that people you’ve spoken to.
00:31:34:22 – 00:31:52:11
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
You know, it totally makes sense. And a group of guys, I mean, a group, if you got a group of ten guys, you’re going to have missed social cues all over the place. You know, it’s you just got it. It’s going to happen. You know, you know, women would walk in there and be appalled, you know. But that’s okay.
00:31:52:12 – 00:32:09:14
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
You know, you fellas need your own space, you know, to do your own stuff. I would like you to talk a little bit more about the camaraderie in the fraternity. Yeah, the fraternal aspect of this. Because from time to time, young people ask me, I, you know, different kinds of people are attracted to the Ruth Institute and to me and stuff.
00:32:09:14 – 00:32:27:21
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And every once in a while I’ll encounter, you know, some young guys and, and and they’ll tell me what it’s like. And the schools are crazy and, you know, well, we got this guy and our in our neighborhood or in our, in our school and he’s really a nice guy, but he’s gay and he’s kind of being a little strange, but he’s not completely comfortable with it.
00:32:27:21 – 00:32:47:10
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And you know, what do we do. You know, and and I’ve been trying to say to them, you should include them in guy stuff. You know, you don’t have to talk endlessly about sex and facts at best that you don’t. But include them in. Include a guy like that. Don’t exclude him. Don’t ostracize him for that type of stuff.
00:32:47:10 – 00:33:10:17
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Try to find a way to find things that you can do together that are that are appropriately bonding and masculine. But you should talk about that, not me. You know, there’s only so much of what an old woman could only say so much in this matter. AJ, pretend you’ve got, you know, 20, 20 year old guys, you know, a handful of them in there, and they’re asking you this question.
00:33:10:18 – 00:33:13:10
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
What do you say to those guys? What do you tell them to do?
00:33:13:12 – 00:33:35:24
AJ Benjamin
I said, I say, yeah, go, go out and, and and find those that, that those guys can’t get to know as many guys and different types of guys that you can because not everybody’s the same. And that’s what I learned in, in my household, there were all sorts of different guys, guys I would have never really interacted with before.
00:33:35:24 – 00:34:09:28
AJ Benjamin
I was always kind of intimidated by the the jock kind of guys, because I wasn’t very athletic back in the day. But I, I learned to just, see that there was a wide range. I think I had stereotyped men as being more like my dad. And, and and not really seeing that there’s so many, different types of men out there with different interests, different needs, different levels of emotionality and, and, you know, warmth and distance.
00:34:09:28 – 00:34:42:07
AJ Benjamin
You I was so, so getting to see all that and knowing, that we’re all men together, that that is that that, I guess the, the crux of it is just knowing that you’re you are one of the guys, you know, God created you to be one of the guys, and you are accepted and loved. And the more people that you more guys that you get to know like that, you know, redeemed man, even even even not even, you know, just, men who aren’t necessarily Christian as I, as I’ve gotten, you know, more comfortable with myself.
00:34:42:07 – 00:35:02:07
AJ Benjamin
I’ve just gotten to get to know other guys that maybe don’t share those same interests and gotten to see, you know, the parts of them that I like and then that that they like me, that there are parts of me that they like and, and just the more I’ve gotten that, the stronger my own sense of masculine identity has been.
00:35:02:10 – 00:35:22:25
AJ Benjamin
You know, I don’t I don’t think that, throughout most of history, men don’t, as you said, men are I, I probably, as in most matter, as emotionally dumb as you could possibly be. I mean, we just like it. It’s it’s it’s it’s it’s like the joke, you know, and I’ve had this joke with my wife, you know, she’s, you know, the, the proverbial.
00:35:22:25 – 00:35:42:13
AJ Benjamin
Well, how do you think that went. That’s like oh I fine it did not go fine. Here’s how it didn’t go by. You know a man. It’s like, oh yeah, I need to see all those. But it’s there, all those layers, you know? But throughout history, they, you know, I think, I think men have always been in groups with mostly men.
00:35:42:20 – 00:36:00:08
AJ Benjamin
Most of the time you look at the apostles, what are the who are they with? Most of the time they were with each other on the boats, okay. And they were doing their job. They don’t they sold their their wives when they went home. At the end of the day, they’re with the other men, their sons, their relatives.
00:36:00:11 – 00:36:18:20
AJ Benjamin
That’s the way it was for most of history. It’s only been like in the industrialized age where, men have become more separated, where we don’t do things together, even if men owned a shop or something. They had other men around them, their their sons or something. People didn’t do it alone. So that’s how men learn socialization.
00:36:18:21 – 00:36:42:26
AJ Benjamin
I think that’s why we have so much of a disconnect in our modern society, because we don’t really have that vehicle for socialization or not many of those vehicles for appropriate male socialization, which does not usually happen on an emotionally expressive level, but rather through an activity level. You’ve said it really. I mean that that is it. Once I, I, I was always, you said before I was always close to my Catholic faith.
00:36:42:28 – 00:37:04:22
AJ Benjamin
I always believed in Jesus, but I didn’t know Jesus, like, knew me and believed in me. And that was the the key. Knowing that he was personally involved and and intimate with me and who I was, and he took a personal interest and was listening that we have personal, very personal and close God that walks with us.
00:37:04:24 – 00:37:27:12
AJ Benjamin
That was the game changer. So I think when you say, you say you’re telling other people stories really are telling my stories because we’re all telling the same story, which is really his story. And that’s just our, our how we relate to to him and with him. So I don’t think I, I think it’s great that you’re saying similar things that other people have said, too, because it means that that that it works.
00:37:27:12 – 00:37:44:02
AJ Benjamin
It’s working, you know, and people have different degrees of healing. Some people may not get the degree that I got. Some people may get more than I got. Because Jesus.
00:37:44:04 – 00:37:46:07
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
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About the Ruth Institute
The Ruth Institute is a global non-profit organization, leading an international interfaith coalition to defend the family and build a civilization of love.
Jennifer Roback Morse has a Ph.D. in economics and has taught at Yale and George Mason University. She is the author of The Sexual State and Love and Economics – It Takes a Family to Raise a Village.
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