Kimberly Zember on Dr. J Show ep 287
Can people really leave behind same-sex attraction? Kimberly Zember says yes—and that claim alone makes her a controversial figure. But as she shares with Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse, her story is not about politics or slogans—it’s about a soul seeking truth, stumbling through pain, and ultimately finding peace in Christ.
Raised Catholic but lacking a clear picture of God’s love, Kimberly lived a double life for years—dating women in secret, wrestling with fear and isolation, and seeking help from those who too often offered affirmation instead of truth. Despite the confusion and the failures, she never stopped searching for something more than feelings or labels could offer.
Kimberly’s refusal to reduce herself to an identity—whether lesbian, missionary, or even “religious”—points to a deeper Christian anthropology: our actions do not define our essence. Through her testimony, she invites us to consider what it really means to live as a child of God in a culture that pushes us to define ourselves by our desires.
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Have a question or a comment? Leave it in the comments, and we’ll get back to you!
Kim Zember speaks internationally about the love and freedom she has found from leaving a homosexual lifestyle and her pursuit of the greater love she has found in Jesus. Through her personal testimony she helps give others insight into how to love those around them who identify within the LGBTQ community and also gives hope and direction to those who may have same-sex attraction or struggle with their identity.
For more information on Kim’s ministry visit: www.BoldlyBeloved.com
For more information on Kimberly’s Mission in Ethiopia: https://www.unforgottenfaces.org/
Transcript
(Please note the transcript is auto-generated and likely contains errors)
The Dr. J Show – Interview with Kimberly Zember
00:00:00 – 00:00:12
Kimberly Zember
And it was crumbling. And that is not blaming anyone. It’s just the way that I was experiencing God and life. And I buckled. Within a year of marriage. I cheated on with a woman. I’m married. Oh, wow.
00:00:12 – 00:00:14
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Oh. Wow. Wow.
00:00:14 – 00:00:34
Kimberly Zember
Yeah. And it led to, Hence why there’s a book. There’s a lot of turns in this. This life, that I’ve lived. And, I love him dearly. We were never meant to be married. We ended up getting an annulment. He actually wanted to go through process. I was like, God, I don’t deserve anything.
00:00:34 – 00:00:57
Kimberly Zember
Like. But he might. And so, you know, whatever I need to do. And I was honest in the paperwork and all this stuff and. And so that we were granted an annulment. He ended up getting remarried, married to a wonderful Catholic woman. And I hear that he’s doing great. And that just blesses my heart. I wish I could give back to him all that I had taken.
00:00:57 – 00:01:01
Kimberly Zember
But God does. He restores in ways that I never could.
00:01:01 – 00:01:19
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
So what? So. So there you were. Married for less than a year. Divorced? Annulled. And then what happened?
00:01:19 – 00:01:36
Kimberly Zember
Well, then was when I was like, you know what? I’m going to take the advice of my counselor. Oh, and by the way, I had also went to another priest, a different priest. I was like, maybe I gotta try this priest thing out again. So I went to another priest, shared with him, and he’s like, you’re gay. I’m like, what do I do with that?
00:01:36 – 00:01:56
Kimberly Zember
And he’s like, love, who you want to love? Just love one another like God. Okay. I remember when we were driving in the car, God rested. But he we were driving in the car, and we were buddies. We were friends. We would go out, gamble and drink together. That should have been a first sign, probably for me, but, you know, I mean, I like to do it, so I’m like, great priests are real people, too.
00:01:56 – 00:02:15
Kimberly Zember
They like it, but I was I see him and, he’s like, just so long as it’s monogamous. And I’m like, where is that in Scripture? And this was a common thread, by the way, from the first priest, the Catholic counselor, and then the second priest. And I don’t want to just slam on these priests. I also went to a Protestant pastor because I’m like, baby, I’m going to Catholic church.
00:02:15 – 00:02:18
Kimberly Zember
And so I went to the Protestant pastor. He’s like, honey, you’re gay. I’m like, My God.
00:02:18 – 00:02:19
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
I’m sure.
00:02:19 – 00:02:25
Kimberly Zember
You’re like, you know God and with women.
00:02:25 – 00:02:27
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yeah. Oh, man.
00:02:27 – 00:02:37
Kimberly Zember
And so they all just affirmed a gay identity. And we’re like, you just need to love who you love. You’re a great person, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I know all that. Like, but but it’s wrong.
00:02:37 – 00:02:54
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
But at that point, you weren’t all that sure that you were a great person. Oh, I thought something about this whole thing was nagging at you. Right. And so I’ve heard this from other people who have a similar story to yours. You know, that that the counselors think they’re affirming you and making you feel better by saying you’re perfect the way you are.
00:02:55 – 00:03:05
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And they’re like, well, actually, I’m suicidal. I don’t want to be who I am right now. I mean, you know, this is not this. They already intuit that there’s something incomplete about the whole. Yeah. So, so that’s why I.
00:03:05 – 00:03:16
Kimberly Zember
Went to counseling because I felt incomplete. I didn’t need to go. You just tell me I’m fine. That’s not doing thing. I’m paying you way too much money for you to just tell me I’m fine. And then it was.
00:03:16 – 00:03:22
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Like I didn’t. I didn’t come for a pat on the head. You know, I want some insight and some strength and. Yeah.
00:03:22 – 00:03:41
Kimberly Zember
And in truth and direction, like, walk with just dropped truth bombs on me and then leave, but, like, walk with me. And I remember, asking all these people, the two priests, the counselor and the Protestant pastor. I was like, but then why in Scripture? And so I’d bring up Scripture right? And I’m like, it’s pretty clear, you know?
00:03:41 – 00:03:57
Kimberly Zember
And so I went to and they’re like, you know, they bring up the arguments now that I never heard them, but they’re like, well, in Leviticus, you know, you then you shouldn’t eat shrimp. I’m like, but that’s the mosaic. What? Like I even I knew that I was like, that was the grace of God. But I’m like, you don’t follow any of those because that was before the New Covenant.
00:03:57 – 00:04:28
Kimberly Zember
And they’re like, yeah, but you don’t understand. I was like, I don’t know if you understand. Actually. I was like, because here’s my concern. If I take and say that marriage can be for anybody, but God says it’s for man and woman, then that’s one thread I’m going to pull. But what other threads are attached to that? I said, if that makes if that’s incorrect or I just don’t understand that or it was not properly translated from its original language, if that’s the place that that there’s a mistranslation, what about the rest of it?
00:04:28 – 00:04:45
Kimberly Zember
You’re telling me the only part that was mistranslated is the part I struggle with? I said, that sounds too darn convenient. So I want to believe that, because then I can just do this and be like, God loves it. He’s good. Now, I never question. I want you to hear me, and I want whoever’s listening to hear this.
00:04:45 – 00:05:06
Kimberly Zember
I never questioned that God loved me. I always question that he loved what I was doing. And that can be two different things. And to wrestle. And I didn’t have anybody. And I even told the priest because he’s like, God loves you. I was like, I know, stop telling me that. He didn’t unpack what that looks like. He didn’t he didn’t hear with me what it looks like to love him back.
00:05:06 – 00:05:19
Kimberly Zember
Right? Jesus says, if you love me, you’ll do what we say. Because love has to do with trust. See? Not just do what I say out of raw, radical obedience and being scared, but because you trust me.
00:05:19 – 00:05:36
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Because you trust me, right? Right, right. I’m not here to hurt you. You’re God’s. God’s rules are not there to hurt us. And, you know, people who are who do not struggle with same sex attraction struggle with the passages over divorce. You know, God wants me to be happy, so I’m going to leave my husband. Well, no, wait a second.
00:05:36 – 00:05:49
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
But, you know, let’s let’s slow this whole thing down, you know? You know, you don’t get to be a judge in your own case. And, you know, and there’s a possibility of growing more deeply in love by understanding, you know, what God is asking of you and what he’s not asking of you, and so on and so forth.
00:05:49 – 00:05:57
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
So that was very wise of you. You must have been in your early 20s when you’ve worked that out. Yeah. So that and no college.
00:05:57 – 00:05:59
Kimberly Zember
So it was, it was the Lord’s grace.
00:05:59 – 00:06:10
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And I think you’re I think you’re right that the grace of your baptism, the grace and the grace of your confirmation, you probably have some praying, grandma’s or relatives in the picture, you know, who are always, you know.
00:06:10 – 00:06:26
Kimberly Zember
Mary Magdalene’s been really interceding for me. They’re probably the majority of my like I picture is my confirmation saint. Everybody thought it was Mary, mother of God. And I was like, no, I’m not going to tell them who it really is. They you know, I just, you know, I’m not going to.
00:06:26 – 00:06:29
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
I got seven demons that I’m not telling you about. Exactly.
00:06:29 – 00:06:31
Kimberly Zember
Exactly. Wow.
00:06:31 – 00:06:52
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
That’s that’s really something. So, so so you never embrace the identity, but you lived the life for a while. You know, when you described your, your bio, you even your very shortest bio, you know, you talked about living the homosexual life, a homosexual lifestyle. You did that for a while. And what what allowed you to change all that?
00:06:52 – 00:07:17
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
You know, you you were never at peace with it, from what I’m hearing. And you know what? One of the things that I think is helpful about these conversations that I’m having with people who have made the journey, they’re they’re are every story is unique, of course, but one of the common themes is that people are not completely at peace with it, even when they’ve really fully embraced it or, you know, you know, or have entered into it and living it and so on, there is a nagging sense that something isn’t right about this.
00:07:17 – 00:07:29
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Right. And so this, I think, is the crucial part of your story. What what is it that finally, you know, turned the tide did the trick or whatever, whatever however you want to describe it?
00:07:29 – 00:07:48
Kimberly Zember
Yeah. And I think it’s I want to make this clear. I was living an open and out. I was no longer hiding, no longer cheating, no longer anything, and just openly dating. Who I wanted to date. My family didn’t shun me. They didn’t. You know, they were wrestling with how to walk through this. They were living out their Christian faith, their Catholic faith.
00:07:49 – 00:08:06
Kimberly Zember
So they were trying to ask, Lord, like, how do we love her, fully love her partner, but not embrace the lifestyle. And so they did the best they could, as never felt shunned from them, but also had our own wrestles. But but I’ll say this, you know, we hear this phrase a lot. You kind of get sick and tired of being sick and tired.
00:08:06 – 00:08:28
Kimberly Zember
I got sick and tired of being sick and tired and hurting people and hurting myself. It was October 17th, 2014. So I’d been in the lifestyle for quite some time out in open dating women, and I was in October 17th, 2014. I was born on December 22nd, but October 17th sometimes feels more like my birthday. And I just surrendered.
00:08:28 – 00:08:52
Kimberly Zember
I, a friend was with me, in the car I was going to pick up, my stuff from my ex-girlfriend. She had cheated on me. I was in Ethiopia and she had cheated when I was gone. And, got back and I remember I was driving away, my friend was driving, and I was sitting in the passenger seat, and I looked at her in the rearview mirror, and I saw this, like, dark cloud over her and I felt like.
00:08:52 – 00:09:10
Kimberly Zember
I felt like I just left her worse than I found her. And I felt like in that moment, God just said, Kimberly, do you think this is why I’ve introduced you to these women? And it’s something just kind of hit my heart and I’m like, I have no idea what I’m doing. God, this life, I don’t even know who I am.
00:09:10 – 00:09:24
Kimberly Zember
I don’t know where I, I’ve got money, I’ve got everything I want. I had a really successful career. I had the mission in Ethiopia. I had whatever woman I want. If I wanted to switch over to man, I probably could have had that too. I was I was just not happy. I was aimless, do you know what I mean?
00:09:24 – 00:09:41
Kimberly Zember
I just there was no point to my life and everything. Just the everything started new every day, you know? And and I remember hearing feeling like I heard the Lord speak to me in that way. And I threw my hands up in the air and I said, you know what? I am sick and tired. And my friend was sitting right next to me.
00:09:41 – 00:09:56
Kimberly Zember
It was as if I was by myself. I didn’t care. I threw my hands up and I said, you know what? I’m sick and tired. God, of playing your role. I have played God my entire life. I have played by my own rules. I’ve tried to make what is right, what I think is good, and all of this.
00:09:56 – 00:10:15
Kimberly Zember
And I am hurting everybody around me that I genuinely love. But I don’t know how to love, right? I really care for these people, but I’m hurting them. I’m hurting myself. I want you to be God. I said. I’m going to give you a chance. Finally, I need you to be God, and I need you to show me that you are good at being God.
00:10:15 – 00:10:35
Kimberly Zember
And if you do, now, mind you, I was in real estate, so I was like, and if you do, I’ll go on lease to own. I. Okay, I don’t know, it was not like a prayer from Saint Francis or Saint Torres, you know, it was just I. And I said, I said no on lease to own you. Show me that you’re good at being God.
00:10:35 – 00:10:53
Kimberly Zember
And I have a feeling if you really show me and I really experience that, you’ll have me for the rest of my life, I said, but you’ve got to show up. And I said, and semi-colon, I need you to do it fast. See, because I knew and I told him, I said this. I did not hold back. I did not hold back.
00:10:53 – 00:11:12
Kimberly Zember
It was probably the most raw, real prayer I’ve ever prayed. I said, and I need you to show up fast, like ASAP, because I’m hungry. And I know that if you don’t show up and and show me that you’re good, I’m going to find someone or something else and I’ll do it quickly because I’m ravenous. So please show up.
00:11:12 – 00:11:36
Kimberly Zember
And that night, my friend took me to a Protestant prayer meeting and I got wrecked. I encountered I encounter a living, breathing God in a way I never have in my life. I believe that Jesus is present in the Eucharist, so I do. And and there’s been a grace to believe that. But it was not experiential in the way that this was.
00:11:36 – 00:12:00
Kimberly Zember
This was different. This was something that I knew I could. It was so tangible that no one could convince me. I don’t care if everyone around me said that never happened. I’d be like, I know it happened. I won’t know all the details. But the Lord met me that night at that prayer meeting. And I’ll tell you this when Paul says, oh, I pray in tongues, and I wish that all the church would pray in tongues, but oh, how I wish that all would prophesy.
00:12:00 – 00:12:25
Kimberly Zember
I got prophesied over that night that that preacher from Africa had never met me, never seen me in his life. And he spoke into my life in a way that only God himself could know. He spoke into my life, and he declared victory in the name of Jesus Christ. Over my life, he kept saying the word victory. And just like in the book of acts when it said that Peter, I believe as Peter, he spoke and it said it cut to the heart of men, it just cut to the heart.
00:12:25 – 00:12:42
Kimberly Zember
And many came to believe. I think over 4000 came to believe when that preacher was speaking. It gives me the chills right now when that preacher was speaking personally over me and he spoke victory in the name of Jesus Christ, he said, finally, you have surrendered your life to Jesus and you will be victorious in the name of Jesus Christ.
00:12:42 – 00:13:02
Kimberly Zember
You kept speaking it and speaking it like over and over my eyes were closed and there I was on the ground. I was maybe, maybe. Many people have different terms for this. Laid in the spirit, resting in the spirit, whatever. All I know is nobody pushed me. I didn’t push myself. I was, it sucked. I was caught up in such peace that I just.
00:13:02 – 00:13:17
Kimberly Zember
My feet didn’t even want to stand. That you just up. And someone caught me, I guess. And I laid on that ground for hours. They had cleaned up the entire room. It was like folding chairs, you know, as a Protestant service, though, they, you know, it was like an office in the day. And then it turned into, you know, like.
00:13:18 – 00:13:34
Kimberly Zember
And they had cleaned up the entire room by the time I got up, I had this like, little sheet they put over me, I guess to just I don’t know why they did that, but they did. And, I got up and something was different. I was not like, oh my gosh, I have no desires for women.
00:13:35 – 00:13:52
Kimberly Zember
What I did have was a desire for God. I wanted I wanted to read the Bible. I wanted to go to not just Sunday mass. I wanted to race to the nearest mass and just lay in that adoration chapel. I was not an adoration person at all. I’m like, I’m squirmy, I gotta go, why am I just sitting in here?
00:13:52 – 00:14:13
Kimberly Zember
So I had a hunger for the Word of God. Anything that tasted, smelt or resembled Jesus, I was there, I showed up, I didn’t care if it was Catholic, if it was Protestant. I’m like, if it is the Spirit of God drawing me, I’m going to go. I never had experience of hunger for God like I did October 17th, and that lasted.
00:14:13 – 00:14:40
Kimberly Zember
And it hasn’t quit, since then. And and it’s transformed and God’s maturing it and and he’s doing so much. But something shifted that night and it wasn’t. Okay. Now I just no longer have the attractions, the women. What I will say is those attractions were still there. The attraction and the desire for God was greater than precedence over every other desire that I had.
00:14:40 – 00:14:48
Kimberly Zember
Nothing could fulfill the desire that I had for God, and nothing was as intense as the desire that I had for Jesus.
00:14:48 – 00:15:10
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
You know, version of I’ve heard now many versions of this same story, you know, AJ, AJ Benjamin, a fellow who is Catholic and never stopped being Catholic, he had an experience like that with, with a, a woman, I think, from one of the, one of the Spanish speaking countries spoken to him, spoke over him.
00:15:10 – 00:15:26
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And then he had a priest. He went to confession at Fatima, if you can imagine. And the priest said, okay, you’re going to be healed of your anger at God. That’s going to go away tonight. That’s going to go away tonight. That your same sex attraction is going to take a little longer. But the anger.
00:15:26 – 00:15:46
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
God, we’re going to get rid of that tonight, you know? So these these type, the Lord. Listen, I got to say this now, this is this is Doctor Moore story. Now, this is not Kim story, but Kim’s part of the story the Lord is working with, with you. All the people who have experienced same sex attraction is an important part of their life.
00:15:46 – 00:16:05
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
God is doing something with this group of people. He is converting them. He is healing them. These are some of the most holy people that I know, these people who have left pride behind. And one of the things you said earlier struck me that I’ve heard repeatedly in one way or the other, you don’t blame anybody. This is the astonishing thing.
00:16:05 – 00:16:27
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Some of the people I’ve interviewed have had horrible things done to them and happened to them, and they have released they have released all sense of blame about that. It’s there. There’s there’s a maturity about it, about about the whole process. So I just want to say, Kim, I’m excited. I’m, you know, I’m so happy to to be getting acquainted with you.
00:16:27 – 00:17:05
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
But if, if, if your story was the only story, that’d be one thing. But it’s not it’s not. And, you know, we got the charts and the graphs. There got to be millions of people who have left pride behind, according to our statistics, you say, but but there’s more than the statistics or they can’t all be lying. You know that that that your brain should be able to tell you that, that they can’t all be deluded or lying or something, but the way the Lord is working with each person, taking them by their hand in their circumstance, given them the path that they need, you know, and this path of people walking with you.
00:17:05 – 00:17:24
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
This is something I want to come back to, but I do want to kind of kind of tie up the story here. You’re no longer seeing Jesus take away the same sex attraction. That’s that isn’t the issue is I want to follow you. I want to be with you. That’s the issue. And that I’ve heard from that I’ve heard from multiple people as well, in different ways.
00:17:24 – 00:17:38
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
It’s like I’m struggling so hard, so hard. And finally I quit struggling. And you’re okay. I’m going to follow you. I’m going to trust you that the same sex attraction thing is going to be whatever it’s going to be. Maybe that’s my cross for the rest of my life, I don’t know, but what I want is Jesus, you know?
00:17:38 – 00:17:59
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And so, those of you who don’t believe in God, you have an explanatory challenge here. You have to explain why it is or how it is that these people who are doing the impossible because no one can change from being eight and not being gay. We all know that. So, you know, the the American Psychological Association has proclaimed that this is true.
00:17:59 – 00:18:16
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
No one can do it. But you have all these people who are doing it and they’re doing it with the help of someone that you think is their imaginary friend. You know, maybe you should reconsider some of your premises, but I’ll just leave that there for, for the skeptics among us to to, to sort out on their own.
00:18:16 – 00:18:38
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
I would really like for you, to, to talk with our followers about, ways people can be helpful to people who are on the journey. You tacitly told us that the guys who were affirming you were not really helping, they thought they were helping, but they weren’t really. And it sounds like your relations with your family were pretty solid through the whole thing.
00:18:38 – 00:19:04
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
It sounds like, you know, you didn’t they didn’t kick you out, you know, but you did. It would be it would be helpful, whatever you can say too, because a lot of people who who particularly people who get this far in watching this show, are deeply interested. They really want to know how can I help my 20 something girl who’s in college and who’s doing this crazy stuff, or my son or my nephew or whatever it is?
00:19:04 – 00:19:10
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
What can you say to people about what was helpful to you and what they might do that would be helpful?
00:19:10 – 00:19:31
Kimberly Zember
There could be a whole book on that, right? And there will be many of them. But, I’ll say just some things that kind of that I feel the Holy Spirit put on my heart is never affirm what our Lord doesn’t affirm. See, God always celebrates the person. So always celebrate the personhood of anybody and everyone, not just your family, but the world.
00:19:31 – 00:19:57
Kimberly Zember
We as human beings, we need to be honored as as fellow human beings, as a creation of God. Right? So we can always choose and ask for the grace to honor and love a person. But that doesn’t mean we honor and love what every person does. We have to be able to separate that. And so my family did the best they could at loving me, but not celebrating and loving every choice I was making.
00:19:58 – 00:20:21
Kimberly Zember
But but what I love is that my mom in particular, she didn’t treat me and my sin struggle different than she did with my brother in his heterosexual sin struggle, the same rules apply. She didn’t think that Kim was more caught up in sin than her son, who was in a heterosexual relationship having some sexual sin in there, too.
00:20:21 – 00:20:39
Kimberly Zember
Right? And so that was really helpful because I think what we do sometimes as a society is we we God gives us these things. I can Paul’s pretty clear, I don’t know if it’s in Romans and or Corinthians, but he says he gives a whole list of people who will not inherit the kingdom of heaven, a whole list.
00:20:40 – 00:21:11
Kimberly Zember
Do you know what that list includes? Greedy gossiper. Do you get just as concerned? Whoever is listening, do you get just as concerned as some? For someone’s soul that is gossiping as you do about the soul of your daughter or whoever who’s in a homosexual relationship, because it neither will inherit the kingdom of God, right? And so sometimes we get so caught up in certain sins, we know that certain sins, mortal sins, venial sins.
00:21:11 – 00:21:31
Kimberly Zember
Right? But but we’ve got to go back to the scriptures on all sin separates. And I’m telling you, when we focus more on Jesus and less on our shortcomings, we admit our shortcomings. We admit the places in our own lives that that we’re failing, we’re fumbling, we’re tempted. But we look more at Jesus than the darkness. Then the light will come.
00:21:31 – 00:21:56
Kimberly Zember
He will bring his light and shine out all darkness. And so I think we lose sight. We focus so much on sin in each other’s lives that the whole point of this all because here’s the reality I can be outside of a homosexual relationship. I can be in a heterosexual, Christian Catholic relationship and still not know Jesus. I can still not have a relationship with him.
00:21:56 – 00:22:19
Kimberly Zember
So my personal advice is keep your eyes fixed on Jesus and pray. Ask him, how do I bring you? Not how do I drag the person to you? How do I bring you Jesus to my loved one? How does Jesus become manifest in me so that I can be Christ to the person that I love, that I want?
00:22:20 – 00:22:48
Kimberly Zember
We, My prayer is that we want people to know Jesus more than we want. Just people not sinning because you from sin and still not be saved. You can be free from sin and still not have a real and radical transformative relationship with Jesus. And so as we get to know personally the goodness of God in our own life, and we allow him to take space in us, then anywhere and everywhere we go, we carry him with us.
00:22:49 – 00:23:11
Kimberly Zember
I don’t have to be like, okay, Jesus, now it’s your turn. I’m like, hey, fill me up today, God, fill me with radical love that you shed your blood. Your very blood is your love shed for me. Fill me with that. Let me be so rooted and grounded in your love for me that so wherever I go today, it’s some way people just get to experience you.
00:23:11 – 00:23:25
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
The negative side of that is that I sometimes praise Lord, keep me from doing anything mean or stupid. That would drive people away from you. It’s such a low bar, but sometimes it’s the best way I can manage a low bar. So.
00:23:25 – 00:23:40
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Let me ask you this. Do you have a theory? Yeah. Some of the time when I talk with people in your situation, they have a theory about why they developed the same sex attraction. Do you have a theory about in your own case, or do you have a theory in general about the origins of same sex attraction?
00:23:40 – 00:24:01
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And this is important because even though the American Psychological Association admits that they don’t really know, they act as if people are born gay. And that born gay thing is what those priests and preachers and everybody, that’s what they were telling you, is you were born this way. That’s, you know, it’s like being left handed. So we obviously that theory is incorrect.
00:24:01 – 00:24:13
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Do you have a theory, of what you think, generates or creates a tendency towards or or however you want to express it?
00:24:13 – 00:24:30
Kimberly Zember
I’ll say two things. Even if we’re born a certain way, Jesus invites us to be born again, so that just to remember that, like, no matter what, you were born kind of angry. More angry than your relative, more than your brother, your sister. The Lord invites you to be born again. You know, I believe the root of all sin.
00:24:30 – 00:24:53
Kimberly Zember
I believe the root of all sin, whether it be homosexual acts, whether it be sexual acts within heterosexuality that that the Lord says, or sinful or, greed, pride, all the sins, right? Sexual and not sexual sense root from brokenness. They root from the original sin that we were born into that right we believe gets wiped away at our baptism, but then we still live in a sinful world.
00:24:53 – 00:25:12
Kimberly Zember
We are born into families that are broken. They’re not perfect, right? They do the best they can. And so I believe that any sin roots from our brokenness and Satan jumps onto that, and then he tries to father us instead of God the Father, fathering us from our brokenness. We get fathered by Satan. But by the father of lies.
00:25:12 – 00:25:33
Kimberly Zember
We believe lies about God, about ourselves, and about others. And then we start to live those out. Satan is massively involved. We need to remember that this is not. Paul says. It himself. This is not a battle between flesh and blood, but of spirit and principality. And I believe that evil spirits are drawn to brokenness because they’re going to try to cover up brokenness where Jesus comes in and brings healing.
00:25:33 – 00:25:53
Kimberly Zember
It says that he binds up the broken hearted. We are broken hearted. We are wounded. We’re longing to be loved, seen, known, chosen, desired, and pursued. God gave us all those longings, and he gave us. As long as he built us with those longings so that he could fulfill them. And when we don’t think he’s good, we go to someone or something else and that is sin.
00:25:53 – 00:26:14
Kimberly Zember
It’s turning from God and to his creation to say, fill me up and God’s like, wait, I created you somewhat empty so that I could fill you and you could be made whole by me. I think we’re trying to make ourselves whole outside of Christ, and I believe that is sin. Now. Every sin is going to be different.
00:26:14 – 00:26:38
Kimberly Zember
I look at my own life. I won’t speak this over everyone because I think that would be pretty arrogant. But I have a lot of friends who have come out of this lifestyle. I have a lot of people. I just did a show, of of this. So that’ll be released into the world as well. But, I’ll talk personally for my own experience, I am seeing how even in the womb there were things spoken over me.
00:26:38 – 00:26:58
Kimberly Zember
There were ways that my mom had a hard time. I was a it was a difficult pregnancy for her. So there was even words of, abandonment and rejection that just her being in so much pain, kind of rejected me, the baby within. And then that was just that was like little seeds, I think. And then Satan’s like, yes, I’m going to hit on that.
00:26:58 – 00:27:16
Kimberly Zember
These wounds of rejection, these things that she’s not wanted, she’s not good enough. And all my life he’s been speaking that to me through different people, through different brokenness. And so I’m starting to see my childhood matters. I used to think it didn’t matter. I’m like, in whatever I was a kid, it doesn’t matter. There’s a lot I won’t get into it all, but I’ve seen through therapy.
00:27:16 – 00:27:35
Kimberly Zember
I didn’t go to therapy. I didn’t start counseling because I’m like, oh, I just need to be straight again. God’s. God’s will over my life is not straight. It’s he wants me to be holy as he is holy, because that’s what he created for me. And he knows that that’s what’s going to make me whole is holiness, which is me, him completing me.
00:27:35 – 00:27:52
Kimberly Zember
Right. And so, when I started therapy, I was like, man, I just need some help. And we started going through my childhood and I started to see things. She didn’t make thing my counselor didn’t make things up. She just pointed things that I thought was normal because you only know what you know. You know, I’m like, man, you get nuggets from McDonald’s or chicken.
00:27:52 – 00:28:08
Kimberly Zember
And they’re like, oh, no, it’s not actually chicken, you know? And so for me, I started to look at my childhood through a lens of someone else. And I was like, oh, I can kind of see that. And there’s been times where I’m like, no, I don’t think that’s really accurate. And she’s like, okay, well, you know, and she wasn’t forcing things, but I’m telling you.
00:28:08 – 00:28:24
Kimberly Zember
So what counseling has done for me is it was almost like revealing these things that I just hadn’t seen myself. And then I bring those things to the Lord. I do inner healing. There’s been a lot of, different things that have been brought to the feet of Jesus to be like, wow, Lord, I didn’t see this in my life.
00:28:24 – 00:28:50
Kimberly Zember
Can you heal this place? So I’ve done, deliverance, inner healing, all of this, not all around sexuality. The majority of it wasn’t even towards sexuality. It was just towards human growth. Right? No, I think that’s a common thread for all human beings, I won’t say. And then many experienced sexual abuse, things like that. I never did. So that’s why I’m like, well, I must have been born this way because nobody hurt me in that way.
00:28:50 – 00:28:58
Kimberly Zember
And still God wouldn’t let me believe that either. But he’s like, hey, but there has been things since your childhood. Will you let me go there with you and shit?
00:28:58 – 00:29:24
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. And so, so the the therapy that you’ve experienced, you already described your therapeutic experience while you were, but before your conversion. And so this is post conversion. Therapeutic experience a journey. Yeah. A completely different, kind of process. And the, the inner child, is that the way you put the pre the pre-birth, the in utero?
00:29:24 – 00:29:37
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
That’s the phrase I’m looking for the in utero experience that you had. You now realize you recognize that there was something significant going on. You are not the first person I’ve heard this from. Okay. From a.
00:29:37 – 00:29:39
Kimberly Zember
Person I’ve heard it from either.
00:29:39 – 00:30:02
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yeah, from a man and from a woman. You know, different guy from Australia, you know, had this type of thing happened to me and, and, and also people who, who are adopted, there’s a lot of wounding associated that even when people are doing the very best that they can and so on and so forth. Right. So there’s a lot of different ways that that a young person can feel rejected.
00:30:02 – 00:30:08
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
And then that rejection wound, as you call it, can be exploited by the evil one.
00:30:08 – 00:30:09
Kimberly Zember
He’s in a lot of.
00:30:09 – 00:30:27
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Yeah, yeah. No, I, I think I know the answer to this question, but I think it would be helpful, if you don’t mind, to answer explicitly, there are people out and about who use the term gay Christian. What do you think of the term gay Christian?
00:30:27 – 00:30:46
Kimberly Zember
Well, to me, it’s a paradox. And it hurts my heart. And I believe it would hurt the heart of our Lord who died for sin. So anytime we put any sin struggle above him, I think we see where our idol is, right? He, Jesus said, have no God, right? God himself in the commands, have no God before me.
00:30:46 – 00:31:12
Kimberly Zember
And we tend to think like Old Testament, like we didn’t make a golden calf. So we’re good. You know, I think the idols of today can be our selves. They can be our desires, our longings, our very gifts that God gives us, our family, our marriages. Right. The calling on our life could be our idol. And so when somebody says, oh, I’m a gay Christian, well, one, you just put your sexual identity or your sexual desires above Christ.
00:31:12 – 00:31:32
Kimberly Zember
How about I’m a Christian who’s gay? I would still have a problem with that. But I have a real problem with putting anyone before Christ because he has a problem with that. Because that means he’s not Lord over it. It is Lord over him. See, when God is first, he can Lord over. That means we gave him permission to Lord over whatever’s beneath him.
00:31:32 – 00:31:58
Kimberly Zember
But when we say gay Christian, now gay comes before God, gay comes before Christian. So that’s addressed. Now, let’s say someone who says, I’m a Christian who’s gay. Okay, Kim, you’re stupid with your language. Whatever. Then I’m a gay Christian. I would say, well, can I challenge you here? Does God call you by that? When he looks down upon the earth and sees his creation, do you believe he calls us by the thing, our sexual desire?
00:31:59 – 00:32:22
Kimberly Zember
Would he say, hey, there’s, so-and-so? My heterosexual? I don’t believe so. Those are parts of us are. Sexuality is a part of us, but it’s not all of us. And I think we’re giving it too much. And I think Satan loves that. I think he’s like, yes, keep your focus on your sexuality, because then guess what?
00:32:22 – 00:32:46
Kimberly Zember
100% of your focus is not on Jesus. And that’s why I said even, oh, I’m a Christian missionary. No, I’m a Christian. Enough. I might do a lot of things. I might feel a lot of things, but my identity cannot be shared with anything that the blood of Jesus didn’t cover, and his the blood of Jesus covered sin and set us free from sin, not made it our identity.
00:32:47 – 00:32:56
Kimberly Zember
And so I have a problem with Christian who’s gay. I think we’re starting to identify with things that Jesus died for, not that he set us free from.
00:32:56 – 00:33:01
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
That is a good summary right there. Yeah. Right there. What you just said.
00:33:01 – 00:33:02
Kimberly Zember
So.
00:33:02 – 00:33:17
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
So so is there anything else that you’d like to add to it? We’ve had a very fascinating conversation. Tell people the name of your book and where they can get it. Because I didn’t have that normally I have, I didn’t even know you had a book. I saw you do an interview, and somehow anyway, I just. What?
00:33:17 – 00:33:24
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
I jumped on it. I jumped on you. But before I found out about the book. So tell people about your book and where they can get.
00:33:25 – 00:33:51
Kimberly Zember
Yeah, it’s published by Sophia Institute. So you can go on to the Sophia Institute website. I believe it’s on Amazon and it’s in target. It’s at, Barnes and Noble. It’s anywhere you can buy a book. It’s audio digital, and paperback. And what I love is all the stuff that I do, whether it’s book sales or, you know, going and speaking at universities and schools and conferences, all the money that’s raised that people give, I don’t ask, they give goes to my mission in Ethiopia.
00:33:51 – 00:34:08
Kimberly Zember
So it supports all the single moms and the kids that, I’m blessed to be able to support. So I don’t see a penny of any of this. And I don’t want to it it goes all to the kids, and their parents. And so, but I would say this to those who are listening, seek after Jesus.
00:34:08 – 00:34:30
Kimberly Zember
He I just I want to leave actually, on this. Open up your Bible whether you believe in it, whether you got to go online to try to find it, read the story of the prodigal son. But stop focusing on the son. Focus on the father. Focus how, as Jesus it said that Jesus came to reveal the father to us, it says by the Holy Spirit is the only way we can cry ABBA, father.
00:34:30 – 00:34:54
Kimberly Zember
And ABBA is personal, right? It’s intimate. And so read the story of what I now call the prodigal father. That’s not me changing scripture, right? The titles we put in there, so read the story. I think it’s in Luke, read the story of the prodigal father and focus on the father. Sometimes were the prodigal son, sometimes were the son who’s trying to earn, sometimes were the one who went astray.
00:34:55 – 00:35:16
Kimberly Zember
Sometimes the the one who’s trying to earn love. But look at the father and and then interact with that Scripture. Ask the Holy Spirit, can I receive that love that God has for me personally? Because man, if we don’t first receive it, we won’t be able to give it. We cannot give what we first have not received. And so I just encourage and I challenge you to sit with that take away.
00:35:16 – 00:35:35
Kimberly Zember
Ask the Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit, take away all my preconceived notions and speak to me as I read this scripture personally, not just for knowledge, but experiential knowledge to where you now become a witness of something you’ve actually experienced and seen with your own eyes. And that’s what we need more of in the world.
00:35:35 – 00:35:39
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
This is a great place to stop mentioning the name of your book one more time.
00:35:40 – 00:35:44
Kimberly Zember
Yeah, it’s called Restless Heart. My struggle with life and sexuality.
00:35:44 – 00:35:53
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Nice. Very nice. Kimberly Zimmer, it’s been a great pleasure getting to know you, and I wish you every blessing on all of your efforts and including your 500 plus children in Ethiopia.
00:35:54 – 00:35:56
Kimberly Zember
And thank you. God bless you.
00:35:56 – 00:36:14
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
Thanks, Kim.
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The Ruth Institute is a global non-profit organization, leading an international interfaith coalition to defend the family and build a civilization of love.
Jennifer Roback Morse has a Ph.D. in economics and has taught at Yale and George Mason University. She is the author of The Sexual State and Love and Economics – It Takes a Family to Raise a Village.
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