“Infertility is hard, it is a cross, it is suffering, but we can help each other by recognizing that and choosing things that will lift up humanity instead of introduce so many harms.” – Katie McMann
IVF is often sold as a treatment for infertility, and couples who struggle with infertility flock to it. On the surface, it appears to more than adequately deal with the problem, but if you scratch the surface, there are a host of issues that plague the couples, children, and industry. And the funny thing is, IVF doesn’t actually cure infertility. Whatever biological issues caused the infertility will still exist after IVF treatment. Katie McMann discusses her own journey with IVF, the Catholic perspective on IVF, healing from the negative effects of IVF, and setting up a ministry to help people struggling with having used IVF.
Many women experience infertility or impaired fertility at some point in their lives. Some, such as Katie McMann, turn to in vitro fertilzation. Through IVF, she and her husband bore two children, but ten others were lost in the process.
Listen as Katie explains how, as well as reveals her painful realization of the problems with IVF, and how she came to co-found Shiloh IVF Ministry.
“At every stage of IVF, there’s risk to the embryos,” Katie notes, also sharing that some of her embryos didn’t survive the thawing process.
“I tried to say, ‘Oh, they’re just droplets of water. There’s no way they’re life.’ I really tried to tell myself that they weren’t children.”
Through Shiloh IVF Ministry, Katie helps couples deal with the hardship of infertility, discern what to do with frozen embryonic children, and more.
Shiloh IVF Ministry: https://www.shilohivf.com/
Home | The Fruitful Hollow: thefruitfulhollow.com
The Fruitful Hollow is a Catholic resource and community for those who struggle with infertility.
Springs in the Desert | Catholic Infertility Ministry: https://springsinthedesert.org/
Chapters
00:00 The Infertility Journey: A Shared Experience
06:09 Understanding Shiloh IVF Ministry
11:55 Personal Stories of Infertility and IVF
18:13 The Moral Implications of IVF
23:48 The Emotional Impact of Infertility on Couples
29:56 The Need for Support and Community in Infertility
34:57 The Broader Perspective on Childlessness vs. Infertility
Transcript (Please note the transcript is auto-generated and contains errors)
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (00:00.194)
By the end of their reproductive years, women on average end up having fewer children than they said they wanted at the beginning of their reproductive years. Social scientists have replicated this finding numerous times among women around the world. This says to me that many, women have experienced infertility or impaired fertility at some point in their lives. My husband and I experienced four painful years of infertility back in the 1980s, and although we never did,
Many individuals and couples use assisted reproductive techniques like in vitro fertilization to achieve their reproductive desires. Hi everyone, I’m Dr. Jennifer Robach-Morris, founder and president of the Ruth Institute, an international interfaith coalition to defend the family and build a civilization of love. My guest today has her own experience of the infertility journey. I’m delighted to welcome Katie McMahon, co-founder of Shiloh IVF Ministry.
which offers healing, accompaniment, and discernment expertise to those who have participated in IVF. Katie and her husband have carried the cross of infertility for the duration of their 20-year marriage. They currently have three living children, as well as 10 others who died in the process of in vitro fertilization. They fully understand why people choose IVF.
and they have come to understand the moral problems associated with that choice. Katie and I are going to have a very candid conversation about problems and heartaches that are seldom discussed. I know you’re going to be fascinated by this conversation and you’ll want to share it with your family and friends.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (02:00.046)
Katie McMinn, welcome to the Dr. J Show.
Thank you so much for having me.
Yeah, well, I was really interested to learn about your ministry. I learned about it from a mutual friend who’s a journalist and who wrote a story about you. And so tell people, what is Shiloh IVF? What’s your mission? Who do you serve?
Sure, so Shiloh IVF Ministry serves those who have participated in IVF and are in need of support, healing, accompaniment, maybe even discernment expertise for frozen embryonic children. So we’re really here to support those who have participated in in vitro fertilization in some manner.
And how long have you guys been in operation? of now, we’re recording this in January 2025. How long have you guys been in operation by this time?
Katie McMan (02:52.782)
Then I guess we got our 501 C3 about a year and a half ago and we launched our website in April of 2024. So it’ll fairly new.
Yeah, well that’s right. And that’s why I was excited to learn about you, because I feel like I’m an early adopter. I’m going to get in on the ground floor and they could say they heard it from me, you know. But so far, what kind of people have reached out to you?
So we have had several clients that have reached out needing the sermon expertise. There’s been a few clients that are actually widowed women who started the IVF process with their husbands and their husband has died and now they have these frozen embryonic children who their need to figure out are, do they parent them or what? So we’ve had women in that situation.
We’ve had some men who have come and really needed some healing support for decisions they’ve made about their remaining frozen embryonic children who decided to discard them and they’re really feeling the remorse in that situation. So trying to kind of digest their feelings and
hear from others who have been through the same decisions.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (04:23.144)
Mm-hmm. And so in some cases, do you do the count? Do you do like counseling? Are you certified counselors or something?
We’re not account first. are, we would consider ourselves peer mentors, so we’re not doing any type of therapy or anything like that. we do offer mentorship and we do have a spiritual kind of healing guide, that guides people through thinking about God, you know, who they are, things like that, but
Otherwise, we’re just kind of guiding them through the thinking process and helping to be there for support and offer potential options.
I see. And so do you have support groups with various people who have come? you ever put the clients in touch with each other to check?
We haven’t at this point, but I think that’s the idea is that as we gain clientele and as we continue to digest what the needs are in this community, we hope to offer support group or at least peer groups, as well as potential retreats and that sort of thing.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (05:39.85)
Right, right. This type of ministry takes on a life of its own, I would guess. mean, because I’ve seen people, for example, people trying to help children of divorce, adult children of divorce. You you start with an idea of what might be needed and what might work. And over time, you kind of go, well, that didn’t exactly work. But there’s this over here that is now completely obvious that people need, you know, and you’re just, you’re going to be feeling your way along for a few years with that type of thing.
Katie, tell us a little bit about your own infertility journey and what has led you to the point that you would do something so radical, a start of 501c3 ministry to deal with this question. You must have a story here, so tell us your story.
Sure. My husband and I have experienced infertility for the duration of our marriage, which is 20 years. So back when we first got married, my husband’s family has experience with adoption and we did adopt our oldest. Then as we were deciding and continuing to want to grow our family, we pursued a little bit more diagnosis related to our infertility.
And at that point we were told that our best option was in vitro fertilization. We were, I was very new in my Catholic faith. and my husband was, we were still floundering in what we believed. So we did end up pursuing in vitro fertilization. have two children that were conceived with IVF. We had a total of 10.
of frozen embryonic children that did die in the process of IVF. But what really got us was our final four frozen embryonic children that after our three, after we had a family of five with three children, we really thought about these four last four children in the freezer and came to understand that they were in fact
Katie McMan (07:56.354)
children and living beings and just didn’t feel like we could leave them in the freezer any longer. We considered placing them for adoption and because we had adopted our oldest, I just couldn’t think of them as someone else’s children. We started thinking that really they were ours and they were given to us and we needed to be the parents that we were called to be.
And so we ended up deciding to gestate, trying to gestate them ourselves. and we had to do that two different times because they were frozen in pairs of two. So the first pair we did initially get pregnant and miscarried with those. And the second pair did not survive the thawing process. So we remain our family of five, but we were prepared for
of family of larger than that when we made that decision. But I think the realization that they were in fact life and not the droplets of water that we kind of told ourselves they were when we looked at them from the picture of the embryologist really came to change our hearts about the process in general.
think you mentioned that you had a total of 10 embryonic children, and you just described what happened to the last four, what had happened to the previous ones.
So when we first went through our fresh cycle of IVF, there were a total of 12 embryos that were created. We got pregnant the first fresh cycle and have our middle daughter. And then the next time we went back for IVF, because IVF doesn’t actually cure infertility, we had to go back again.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (10:01.486)
Hold on,
Yes, IVF does not in fact, incur infertility.
It gives you a baby, but it doesn’t cure infertility. So there you were back again, looking in the freezer.
We were back again. We had another embryo transferred and we miscarried with that one. So then we went back again after a period of time and we got pregnant and conceived my youngest daughter.
And then ultimately, I guess, then we had the last four. So there were a couple though, in the process at every stage of IVF, there’s risk to the embryos. And so even though at the beginning fresh cycle, we went and had 12 embryos, we ultimately had only six that were frozen.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (11:15.349)
I see.
So in that process, we conceived our middle child and then had five embryos that did not make it to the freezing.
I see. I see. So you only have one egg extraction, one moment where all these eggs were extracted at the same time. Is that correct? Correct. I see. Okay. So I appreciate you going into this detail because a lot of times people enter into the IVF process thinking about what I’m doing today and I’m going to come home with a baby and the steps in between.
don’t necessarily get as much attention. You attend to them while you’re going through them, but you’re not really, you’ve paused on each one of these steps for us to see. when you, so you, how many miscarriages have you had?
I hope I’m going to say this number right. I think it’s three total.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (12:18.186)
Okay, okay. So every one of those miscarriages was a was a heartbreak, presumably.
Yes.
Look at the look on your face.
Yes, absolutely. I mean for both myself and my husband.
Yes, yes. and then, and in the background are still some children in the freezer and you’re not attending to them in the same way quite yet, it seems like that. That process is still unfolding to where you are seeing and having some feelings about them.
Katie McMan (12:53.294)
Correct. We tried not to think about them. I think my husband kind of thought about them in the background more so than I did, you know, out of sight, out of mind to some extent. and I didn’t quite perceive them as life. I tried to say, they’re just droplets of water. There’s no way they’re life. They don’t look like life under the microscope to me in that picture.
so I really tried to tell myself that they weren’t children, at, the beginning. And then I, when we really had to decide what we were going to do with them and not just leave them in the freezer forever, that’s when it became real to me that they were in fact our children, even though they were really tiny.
Yeah. And so is that the process, is that the point where it became clear to you that there was sort of a deeper error with this whole process? Katie, I want to tell you, I’m so glad that you’re willing to talk about this because the process you’re having, surely many people have been through this process, but by you spelling it out in this way, it’s illuminating the various issues.
you know, that are there because there’s more than one issue here, there’s more than one problem here. What was it that finally convinced you that there was something kind of fundamentally wrong? You know, it’s like at each stage you’re solving a particular problem and so therefore you’re entering more deeply into the question of what these things are. But at some point,
It’s shifted gears at some point, it sounds like. So can you describe what was it that made that change in your perception of what these beings actually were?
Katie McMan (14:52.948)
Yeah, I think the, really the decision, having to make a decision and are feeling like we needed to make a decision. Nobody was going to be holding us to anything. was our own decision. we keeping them in the freezer is not a decision. Right. It feel like that to us. that felt like indecision to us. So.
having to make that decision. once we did, neither one of us wanted to undergo IVF again, but that was really the only way to save these embryonic children from a lifetime in the freezer. So we felt like we had to. And so as we went through the process, IVF process from that angle,
So many feelings opened up about the process and how it really is.
not ideal for production of human life. We kind of have the ideal process given to us already.
Right, right. Well, but now, to be fair, as an infertile person or somebody who’d experienced long-term infertility, you already knew it wasn’t ideal, right? mean, so you already had that, right? But you’re talking about it’s… In one way, you could say it’s not ideal because it’s inconvenient for me, but…
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (16:36.398)
The gears shifted. It’s not just that it’s inconvenient for me. Why can’t I be fertile like everyone else? What’s wrong with me? What’s wrong with my husband? Did I marry the wrong guy? Because we went through four years of infertility ourselves back in the 80s, and IVF was not as normalized then as it is now. We were offered all of these things, but it was not as normalized. But I was repelled by it, and I can’t say that I was particularly moral about it. was just, I mean, because I was very fresh in my
Catholic faith, wasn’t even actually actually infertility brought me back to the faith, but that’s another story. But part of the process here is your shift in understanding of what exactly you have done. You you have created human life outside of the ideal process, the God given process. And it’s not simply that it’s inconvenient for you and your husband. It’s also that there’s something not right about
the way you’re viewing the child and how you’re treating the child. There’s something not right at that level as well. Can you talk about that a little bit? Can you shed a little light on that,
Yeah, I think we didn’t realize it as we went through IVF the first time, certainly that you hear commodification and you hear these different terms that way. People talk about how you expect life. You, you know, you’re thinking that it’s a right. And while we didn’t necessarily think that it was a right, we did learn that we expected it the way people talk.
today is, okay, when are you going to get married? When are you going to have kids? You know, you need to expect like as part of your marriage, you need to be fruitful. Well, sometimes it, you don’t have children exactly once you’re married. And so even the language gets us in there, but with IVF, you’re not, you’re introducing
Katie McMan (18:41.098)
a third party into the relationship that is supposed to be between
a husband and wife.
And I think my eyes were opened up even more to that as I read the Handmaid’s Tale, which is kind of weird. But, you know, it’s not just this, it’s not just this intimate moment between my husband and I. It’s the doctor that’s giving me what my husband is supposed to have given. And so, and when I think about that from the child’s perspective, that my child was not created
under the warmth of her mother’s beating heart. wasn’t a, she wasn’t a gift that was given from my husband to me, all housed within loving warmth. My child was created in a lab where nobody loved her. You know, nobody was caring for her. She didn’t hear the sounds of her mother’s heart or her mother’s voice or her sister’s.
That’s not right. You know, I mean, when you think of it like in what other case do we so freely give our children over to somebody else to take care of? You know, I mean, I remember being heartbroken as I looked at daycare when I was working for my children of like somebody else is going to take care of my kids. This is a hard decision. But yet in this moment of conception,
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (19:54.114)
Yeah, right.
Katie McMan (20:21.396)
until the child is transferred into my womb, which could be years, I’m freely letting them being taken care of by anyone. And frankly, they may not be being taken care of.
Mm hmm. So I’ll bet you had some I’ll bet you had some feelings about that Alabama case where the judge where where the babies where the babies were dropped by some knucklehead wandering into the lab, grabbing something and dropping it. And the babies are killed. And, you know, and everybody’s all shocked that Ivy that the Alabama court said that’s a wrongful death. The parents have a right to sue for wrongful death. And people are, well,
But wait, whose side are you on? Are on the parent’s side? You want the parents to have no recourse whatsoever because some bonehead was grotesquely negligent? know? Well, I’m sorry, I’m putting words in your mouth, but did you have to… Let me ask a simple… Let me ask this as a question instead of making a speech. What feelings did you have about that Alabama case? I’m sure you know the one I’m talking about.
Yes, it was horrifying to me really. You know, to think from the parent’s perspective, I don’t think we always want to say what embryos are because it makes it harder. It makes the doctor’s job harder. It makes the nurse’s job harder. It makes the parents job harder. If we actually say
These embryos are in fact.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (22:04.088)
children.
And that case kind of threw the reality of that into our faces. And some people squirm away from it and others are like, yes, but I think it reminds me of our inability as parents when we choose that option for our children.
It reminds me that we aren’t able to protect them. Right. You know, and not that we’re able to protect them from everything. We realize that as parents, there’s going to be harm in our, that come to our children, but this is something we can prevent. And it doesn’t make infertility any easier. You know, infertility is hard. It is just hard. It is a cross. It is a suffering.
But gosh, if we can help each other by recognizing that and choosing things that are actually gonna…
Lift up humanity instead of introduce so many harms, then that would be great.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (23:23.072)
Right, right. And just to one more thing about the Alabama case, I liked what you said that it put it in our face, you know, that we have this case, the judge was forced to answer the question. What are these things? You know, are they property? Are they persons? What are they? You know, and at the heart of the IVF industry is that contradiction.
You know, the IVF industry is an industry and the product they’re selling is a live baby. And that’s what everybody wants. If people didn’t want that live baby, I might add a live baby to which you have undisputed parental rights, right? Because there’s the whole issue of third party reproduction completely. But the industry exists because people want something. They want a live baby. But the industry functions around the idea that
the embryos are medical waste that they can throw away and discard if they need to, if it helps their bottom line. That’s the way the industry is organized. And so there’s a contradiction right at the heart of it. And when the Alabama case exposed that, people lost their minds basically. But for you, for somebody like you, you had already faced that contradiction. That was already part of your…
Consciousness, know, and so you didn’t freak out. know, you go. Yeah, everybody. That’s what it is. That’s what it is. Let’s talk. Let’s talk. Right. Did you get calls after that case? that were you guys already in business by that time? I don’t remember exactly.
just beginning when that came out. We did get a couple of calls asking how we were responding. And at that point, we were new enough that we weren’t really responding. You know, we want to be a beacon of healing and hope for folks. And so we didn’t necessarily feel like getting in the
Katie McMan (25:28.85)
Nix of that as an organization was going to help people feel like they were coming to a place of healing.
I get you. That makes sense to me. Now, you know, from time to time you’ve mentioned your husband, and I’m interested to hear if you’re willing to share this.
How did your husband deal with all of these issues? You’ve mentioned a few ways in which he was different, but my observation is that infertility is something that affects the husband and the wife or the man and the woman. They have very different kinds of responses to the infertility experience. What would you like to say about that based on your own experience and what you’ve observed amongst your clients?
Yeah, so our experience really was different. My husband had a lot more anger and grief related to how he saw me react versus the infertility himself. We did experience primary male infertility, so he felt some sense of responsibility for our infertility, which was not the case in my
eyes were a couple, but he was torn up at seeing me so torn up. You know, I would go to baby showers for my friends and hear people asking me when I was pregnant, having coworkers become pregnant and constantly talk about their babies and all this stuff that I would just come home wrecked. And he hated that. And he hated seeing me.
Katie McMan (27:17.504)
like that. And so that’s where he would grieve the most, but it was a much quieter grief. He’s not crying. You know, he’s not crying his eyes out and feeling like he needs to eat ice cream or chocolate or what’s happy moving. I don’t know. so he didn’t talk about it nearly as much except with me. and you know, but we would be crying together at night sometimes.
And so it was really just as emotional for him, just not always on the outside. And I would get a lot snarkier about it than he would. He’s very patient and kind. I would get snarky when people would ask me when we were getting pregnant, like, well, we would have done so already if it were up to us, but it’s not. he did experience that differently. He was the one though, who
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (28:12.194)
Mm.
Katie McMan (28:18.094)
kept the embryos close at heart. And he was actually the one who was asking me about them. Like, what are we going to do with these embryos? Do we want to have more children? You know, I’m like, really not now. But he was the one who kind of plugging that conversation and kept them at the forefront.
Mm-hmm. So let me ask you a question which we may want to edit out if you don’t mind. Okay. And that is, when you said your husband had primary infertility, did you use your husband’s sperm?
yes we did.
Okay, okay. part of the treatment was some type of, forget, there’s a special term for it you do.
I with IxD, which is intracytoplasmic sperm injection, I think, which involves a process that makes the egg and sperm a little… I guess they actually poke the sperm into the egg to make it more likely to succeed.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (29:28.012)
And did you, how long were you in your infertility journey before you got an actual diagnosis?
I think it was probably…
three years or so.
Okay, okay. So you went for a while without knowing what the cause was. We did. And then knowing the cause creates its own set of feelings and interactions and stuff like that.
That’s correct. actually, with our experience with adoption, adoption was our first choice and we were able to adopt first. The second time we were, we actually started down the adoption process and it was a little bit harder and for different reasons we’ve made, for a variety of reasons, we made certain choices that may have made that more difficult the second time. But the doors just didn’t open for adoption.
Katie McMan (30:23.086)
as easy as they did the first time. then we were like, well, let’s pursue what’s going on with our infertility. Cause at that point we didn’t really care too much about the biology of our children. We were okay. If it wasn’t our biological child.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But one thing I’ve noticed in third-party reproduction, which you guys did not do, which I want to salute you for, is that because we’re adoptive parents and bio parents, you know, we had a different path, but we ended up with biological child and an adopted child, is that in both of those scenarios, my husband and I are on equal footing with respect to the child. For our adopted child, neither of us is biologically related. With our birth child,
both of us are. And I think there’s a special dynamic that gets introduced into the marriage when you’ve got a third party reproduction, when you’ve got, when the wife is using donor sperm, there’s another whole set of problems that that creates. And you guys didn’t have that, we didn’t have that, you know. And I don’t know if you’re hearing from people about that, but do you have any thoughts about that particular issue, Katie?
It does create potential problems as expected. We do have a couple clients who have created their embryos using, you know, egg donors or sperm donors. and some of them have not yet told the children. So there’s potential for problems there just in family dynamics of
Right.
Katie McMan (32:06.494)
If the child is growing up thinking that their mom is their biological mom and years later they find out that she’s not, then for a variety of reasons.
Right.
that can be harmful to the family.
Right, right. And I’ve encountered enough of these different types of situations to know that that is 100 % the case. And it introduces dynamics into the couple. It’s not really your kid, it’s really my kid. You don’t really understand. It’s like there’s a step-parent relationship lurking in the background. So there’s a lot of complications, but that’s not your personal journey.
But I bet you you’re gonna see this. longer Shiloh is open, you’re going to see more more different parametrizes of these stories. and I also wanna say, I just wanna emphasize part of what you said here, that men and women reacting differently to the infertility experience in my observation is 100 % normal. And for me, this is gonna sound crazy, but for us,
Katie McMan (32:57.422)
Absolutely.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (33:18.178)
This was literally the first time that my husband and I understood that men and women are different. Of course, we had been different all along, but it wasn’t in our face in the same way. like, this doesn’t mean the same thing to him than it means to me. We each have our own way of grieving and it matters to a different part of, it matters to the soul, but in a different way for each of us. And so…
To grow up in the girl boss career woman, raw women can do anything, men can do kind of era, which I was part of in the early years of that. It’s like, this is a big slap in the face. It was like a big wake up call to see that that is just not the case. This is simply not true. And so you have your own version of that. And I know you’re going to encounter it a million times in the course of your ministry. Tell me what…
prompted you guys to start a ministry about this though? Because that’s another whole level. That just ratchets this whole thing up to a new level. What prompted you? What inspired you to say,
Also, again, it doesn’t actually treat the infertility. I was recently watching the movie Joy. It’s on Netflix. It’s kind of about the create, about IVF and the founders of IVF and kind of how IVF got started with the first test to baby. but one of the things that was said was, you know, this is a cure for childlessness and it struck me the difference between childlessness.
and infertility. Certainly infertility causes childlessness, but if we’re just treating the childlessness, we’re very short-sighted. So those are kind of the big things of how the church sees it, as well as just feeling like the child is a right and an object versus a subject and a gift to be given and received.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (35:05.289)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (35:27.103)
Huh.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse (35:32.686)
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