What if the most “settled science” around abortion was built on sand? In this stirring episode of The Dr. J Show, world-renowned psychologist Dr. Priscilla Coleman exposes the deep flaws behind the much-lauded “Turnaway Study” and shares decades of suppressed research on the psychological toll of abortion.
“At least 30% of women come out of that room… and they’re changed. Sometimes to the point of suicide,” she says. It’s a truth our culture refuses to face—but the data, and the stories, are undeniable.
Dr. Coleman and Dr. Morse don’t just speak from data—they speak from the heart. “It wasn’t until I went back to the Catholic Church and went to confession that the night terrors finally stopped,” Dr. Morse shares in a rare moment of personal testimony.
We cannot love women by lying to them. Watch this powerful conversation and discover how the International Institute for Reproductive Loss is arming counselors, lawyers, and pregnancy centers with scientific truth because “science is finally supporting what the Church has always taught.”
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Watch Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ukkz7sKYI4
Transcript (Please note the transcript is auto-generated and contains errors)
Interview Transcript: Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse with Dr. Priscilla Coleman
Dr. Morse: In this episode, you’ll notice that certain words about ending a pregnancy are edited out in order to get this on YouTube without running afoul of their community guidelines. But if you want the full, uncensored version of this impactful interview, you can view it in its entirety on our Rumble channel. We’ve got the link in the notes.
Dr. Coleman: So whittling it down. You know, progressively and and one of your questions that we had in preparing for this interview, you had said that often in the media, we share that the turn away study incorporate a thousand women. Well, initially agreeing to participate, there were 1199 women, but only 877 completed the first baseline measures. And then by the time the five year period is up, it’s down to 512 women.
Dr. Coleman: So when we look at 512 women who endured through this, from this huge potential pool of up to 162,000, it’s a meaningless, minuscule percentage. That does not mean it has no bearing on what the average woman would experience. In one of those three groups, whether they.
Dr. Morse: Okay, but here’s the thing that really bugs me. And I got to say it. And you, you were too polite to say this, so I’m going to say it. The lead researcher, Diana Greene Foster in 2020 published a book describing this study. And this book, I’m sure you do know, but I got to read this. I got to read this to the people out here who did.
Dr. Morse: She published a big book in 2020, and of course, everyone loved it. And really fond Over’s great book. And here’s the name of the book, The Turn Away Study ten years, a Thousand Women and the Consequences of having or Being Denied. And what I want to say. And this is not Doctor Coleman. Now, this is Doctor Moore. Snell.
Dr. Morse: The title of this book is a lie.
Dr. Coleman: Right.
Dr. Morse: If you have ten years worth of data, you don’t have a thousand women. You had a thousand women, you had a thousand women before the state started. You never had a thousand women, you know, you never had a thousand women fill out the forms.
Dr. Coleman: Right.
Dr. Morse: And by the time you have, by the time you followed them through the whole process, you’re down to 500. So the title of the study is deliberately misleading. I can’t I just, I just.
Dr. Coleman: Generally I know.
Dr. Morse: Themselves, they should be ashamed of themselves and you know, and for people to not even ask for people to not, you know, it’s like, oh, okay. So, so if you would, if you would now I think in your, in your, one of your reports that I read, it was like perhaps 1% of the potential people are, are actually being studied.
Dr. Morse: Right. And by criteria we don’t know. Okay. And so can you help people understand what difference it makes, who is selected in versus who is selected out, and what might have gone on in the background? The, the the big problem scientifically, is that we don’t know what went on in the background. Whether you like it or don’t like it, whether you agree with the study or don’t agree with the study.
Dr. Morse: I’m sorry. I’m, I’m I’m on my soapbox now. But from a from a scientific perspective, the fact that we don’t know how they screened in and how they screened out, that’s a scientific problem right there regardless of anything else. So but walk people through the kind of selection bias and the kind of impact that might have had on the results that they’re reporting if you were looking for.
Dr. Coleman: So I think you you mentioned 1% and but this the range that I ended up calculating for this paper and for different, places where I, you know, it’s or it’s where I testified it depended on your estimate of that population initially. So the range was from about .32 percent to a maximum of 3.18% of the women in this study were from that population.
Dr. Coleman: So when you have a very minuscule percentage of women in your study, there isn’t any, what the I was I would say it would be impossible for them to reflect the population. They’re going to be systematically different for various reasons, and that you just use the word selection bias. Well, we know in other areas of, study in the behavioral sciences, it would be very hard to get a paper published that has even as low as, like 50, 60% of the sample will chose to participate in the results, you know, reflect half of the population.
Dr. Coleman: So this is like an absurdly small percentage. And so those women may differ in terms of, you know, not having been terribly impacted. They may they may differ on socio demographically. They may be more inclined to be in poverty. They might be more inclined to be single. They might be more inclined to be personally pro-choice. We know there’s just, you know, countless ways that that minuscule sample may not reflect the average person facing a later or an early.
Dr. Coleman: And so in any other area of science, authors just wouldn’t get away with publishing stuff like this. I remember in one of my depositions, I think it was from Indiana. They kept putting one study from the turn away, of insulting one after another, wasting their time on the record. And I finally said, you can you can show me all of their studies, but it’s garbage in, garbage out, and and and none of the results have any credence and that, you know, and they, you know, that will frustrating.
Dr. Coleman: And that was the end of the discussion. But I remember saying if somebody would provide $80 million, I could do a mazing study. Why that kind of money? That’s all they could come up with. And I think the bottom line is the truth, that the data, when you collect data appropriately and you use the established methods of science, your your results will show that women, a significant percentage of women fare worse after.
Dr. Coleman: I’ve never I’ve never said everyone and it was you know it’s going to be troubled by it. But there is a significant percentage of women, at least 30% who are, you know, they they come out of that room or wake up from that procedure and they’re changed. Sadly. Yeah. And sometimes to the point of suicide. And another kind of related point is there is consensus in terms of what are the risks factors for experiencing that trauma.
Dr. Coleman: The American Psychological Association scouting report still identified that major risk factors, providers and their textbooks identify what or who are the women demographically, personally, situationally? Who are the women who are at risk for having adverse outcomes? And so it’s consensus across the that’s an area in this, you know, the psychology of where this the it’s not the baby.
Dr. Coleman: We know that women are ambivalent or they’re being pressured, of course, to have an A if they’re younger than if they feel an attachment to the fetus. We know there’s set up to have a poor outcome. And so with these laws so many of the ones that I’ve helped, you know, provide information for involve this, they involve, waiting periods, you know, when women are, when there’s a waiting period of at least 24 hours, when they can literally sleep on it and access information, there there’s a percentage that change their mind, about 8%, based on new time data.
Dr. Coleman: And so when we’re talking about a state like Florida, I was involved with that with their waiting period. There’s, well, in 22, and just extrapolating from the Utah data, when there are 70,000 in the state, like there were and at that time, 8% decide not to. That’s like 5000 women that are are going to choose to have their babies.
Dr. Coleman: And should women have the right to make a fully informed choice but viable since, you know, and so.
Dr. Morse: And you know, Priscilla, I can remember years ago running into you at a conference and I quizzed you about this and you very quickly said, well, the studies show between 10 and 30% of women have adverse reac reactions. Right. And and and I’m and I’m going to be fully transparent with people here. And now that I had heard that, I regretted almost immediately and I had psychological distress over it, and I had anniversary anxiety and and no one in the therapeutic community would, would help me.
Dr. Morse: You know, they and I would say, you know, at this point, one therapist after another and they would all say, oh, no, that can’t have anything to do with it. It has nothing to do with it. You have other problems. Let’s get with your other problems. So you know, fine. But you know, it wasn’t until I went back to the Catholic Church and went to a Catholic priest in which confession that it finally the the night terrors, helped.
Dr. Morse: But but but so I’m, I’m, I’m saying that so that I’m fully transparent, that I’m invested in this, that I know for a fact that the women, do feel this way. And like you said, I want to emphasize what you said, that we don’t claim nobody on our side claims that every woman feels better. Right. But the people on the other side claim that no one ever said right.
Dr. Morse: So these are not parallel claims. And in point of fact, all we need is one counterexample to disprove the outrageously strong claim that no one feels it right. And we got millions of I got millions. So so what she’s talking about people. If you know, if you if you think it’s true, just take the lower end 10%. Let’s say 10% of women have adverse reactions of some kind.
Dr. Morse: We have a million a year, okay. Over the course of ten years, that’s a million women walking around with no.
Dr. Coleman: One looking.
Dr. Morse: For them. What no one looks like. No more taking them seriously, right?
Dr. Coleman: What? And they’re made to that. And I’ve heard so many testimonies over the years that the women are made to feel like they’re crazy or like the, you know, the. And so and not only do they not get help, but they are harmed further by the reaction to their pain. There’s no validation. And I think early when I started on this topic, I heard from a lot of women who just, you know, appreciated that it was finally being studied and recognized.
Dr. Coleman: They weren’t alone, you know, with their suffering. And, you know, relates to what we hope to accomplish for the institute that I’m part of. We wanted to, develop evidence based treatment protocols that can be used. And, and we want this trauma to be acknowledged and recognized. And so, you know, it’s just. It’s, you know, it’s just it’s this it shows.
Dr. Morse: And so let’s because you’re professor of psychology, let’s give people a little taste of what those adverse effects can be for people. You were talking about your roommate, who sounds like was at the extreme end of negative reactions, of being full on psychotic, but what would be a typical kind of thing that people would hear or that people would report?
Dr. Morse: Priscilla.
Dr. Coleman: I think probably the strongest effect that you see, the most robust, indicator of trauma across all the everything I’ve looked at, the strongest outcome that seems to come out is substance abuse. So whether it’s, prescription drugs, illicit drugs, alcohol and it that makes perfect sense because the women are coping well with with that with a trauma that is overwhelming.
Dr. Coleman: They don’t have to tell anybody. They can turn to alcohol or pills. They can just tell their physician they’ve been feeling anxious, get a medication. So that that the effects were strong. And Doctor Ferguson’s longitudinal study to see it. I did a review paper at one point around 2010 on the studies that looked at substance abuse. So I would say that that one, it’s definitely out there.
Dr. Coleman: There’s a lot of post-traumatic stress disorder. There’s also, other forms of anxiety like generalized anxiety, phobias, different forms of depression, major depression being the most pronounced. And then there’s suicidal ideation and suicide completed for for the Stacy Zallie case I was on in new Jersey in 2010. This poor young woman had no prior psych history.
Dr. Coleman: She was pressured into an A by her boyfriend and the boyfriend’s father, and then he dumped her. The next day was 6 or 8 months later. She. She started drinking and she hung herself in her room. And and it was a situation where there was she didn’t have the risk factors, but she, she lost her baby and was in the suicide note.
Dr. Coleman: She indicated that now she can be with her unborn baby, Brittany Lee. And so one of my, jobs for that case was to calculate how many suicides in the United States are directly attributable to. And again, it’s kind of a statistical thing, whether different ways to calculate. But a minimum of 43 suicides every year are directly attributable was where it’s the primary factor.
Dr. Coleman: And it may be as many as 245 or so. And that’s the extreme. You know, they just find, life incompatible with having had enough. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Morse: Such a lot, I think. I think now’s a good time for you to, to talk about your institute, because when you reached out to me and told me about your new institute, I thought, this is really this is very insightful because, well, first of all, tell people, tell people the name of your organization, and I’m going to tell and then I’m going to tell you how great it is.
Dr. Morse: I think because I.
Dr. Coleman: Think it’s great time. Appreciate you becoming a fellow with us. General. It’s such a pleasure to have you on board. And it’s to give us, you know, such credibility and strength and, but it’s the International Institute for Reproductive Loss. It’s only been in existence for a year. How it began was sort of interesting. Kaitlyn Carlson, who is a survivor, she’s been a national speaker about her experiences.
Dr. Coleman: She’s read was reading all the literature for many years. And, she’s a doctoral program now. She was interested in writing a paper on moral injury, which we now have submitted. It’s being reviewed by the journal, research on, religion and health. I believe it is health and religion. I’m terrible with files on terms like the Journal of Health and Religion.
Dr. Coleman: But so Caitlin came, and I have an Airbnb. She came to visit with another friend, and then she just wanted to come back and asked if I would write a paper. And, you know, I was a member of some of these battles, and I just always want to be an encouragement to people that are interested in research.
Dr. Coleman: So she came back and we talked about a paper applying, the moral injury construct to a it fits because of the shame and the trauma and the I mean, it just it was it’s an excellent package variable to help understand why some women are just so horribly harmed. But so we started talking and then it was like, it’s been on my heart to get this information to the people that need it, to lawyers, to doctors, therapies, crisis pregnancy centers, women who want real information.
Dr. Coleman: And and it was on her heart too. And so we we decided together to start this that she is the president and founder and, is her really much more her idea. But it’s subsumed under, the New Horizons Foundation. And, and, it was easy. And then you submitted an application that was accepted, and they cover all the paperwork for the institute, and and now, you know, a year later, we launched a petition at a conference in Colorado a few months ago.
Dr. Coleman: And Caitlin bought a building and my little town here and there. So we have a physical location, for the institute. And our whole our goal is to, main goal is to package the scientific literature for people that need it. So we now have annotated bibliographies. And it’s not just for looking at all forms of reproductive once we’re considering stillbirth, miscarriage, loss, through adoption to the birth mother.
Dr. Coleman: I’m learning a lot, and we’re we’re looking at hiring more people to help with packaging this information. But I think our one is is way up there, over 300 articles. So we’re packaging information. And we want to help researchers who face retraction. We want to help train experts. We have lots of goals. And it’s just moving along beautifully.
Dr. Coleman: Now we’re adding fellows just like you.
Dr. Morse: Yeah yeah yeah yeah. But here’s what here’s what I want to emphasize is I mean all that that’s all very interesting how you got it done and that you’re doing it and that you’re moving forward and everything. But I but I think, you know, somebody I come at this from the perspective of the of the family and the maternal the maternal desire, the maternal heart.
Dr. Morse: You know, you could say when you package it as reproductive loss, then you can see it makes sense why a woman would feel a loss when her baby died. Your whole body is geared toward taking care of that baby, even if it’s a surprise. Even if it’s awkward, even if it’s not what you thought you wanted. Your body’s engaged.
Dr. Morse: You know your body. Mother nature is at work there, you know, trying to make a mommy out of you. And, and and when that is interrupted, however it’s interrupted. It’d be astonishing if you didn’t feel anything, you know? Honestly. And so and so I to my mind, you know, as I reflect on these, this thing and the things that I’ve heard because people tell me things to Priscilla, that, that, that this is at the heart of what the forces want to deny.
Dr. Morse: They, they they want to deny that the the maternal heart. Yeah. You know, and that that’s and that that’s a loss and that grieving, that loss is necessary and healthy for a woman, you know, to say that you I didn’t finish this and my body wanted to and my heart wants to. And I didn’t expect to feel all these things that I feel and you know, and and to just temp all of that down the way the rhetoric does is it is a very serious injustice.
Dr. Coleman: Right. And this is why I think we have a huge responsibility to those women if we’re going to be offering a procedure, if it has to be offered in a way that’s now that knowledge is provided, that you know, that there’s care offered. And I mean, that’s the point. Women are just let down. So verbally, we are looking at writing a book on institutional betrayal.
Dr. Coleman: We’re addressing a lot of these issues. But, related to the other forms of loss, I just wanted to say quickly, one of the my goals and our goals and including the other forms of loss, is to identify what is similar and what’s different. And there are unique challenges with it because obviously it’s often a viable pregnancy. It’s a choice that woman makes often in crisis.
Dr. Coleman: And it’s for reasons of, you know, self-defense. So once they feel like if they have this baby, their life will be over. So it’s different. And when you look at the studies, there was some excellent work by Anne Brown out of Norway. She followed women who had miscarriages and women who had done. She found initially they had similar reactions.
Dr. Coleman: About 25% experienced anxiety and other psychological problems. But you she followed them five years at two years and five years out by two years. Not so. The women who have had miscarriages had resolved the loss indefinitely by five years. But the women who have had remained at those high levels of trauma expressed. And so it is important to know how it’s similar and how it’s different now.
Dr. Morse: That’s really interesting. That’s a very interesting point because it it’s recognizing the moral component of it that she feels some responsibility for what happened. And it’s not an act of nature or something like that. And that’s a whole nother level of of reality. I mean, that’s a, that’s a level of the, the, the real lived human experience that we’re brushing under the rug.
Dr. Morse: And that’s not fair to anybody. Yeah. You know, there are so many interesting things that we’ve brought out here. I want to go back to one technical thing, because I don’t want to let this go. And that’s the sampling issue, okay? The sampling issue. And people who are familiar with this channel may have heard me talk about this before, but for many aspects of the sexual revolution, the the trick is to they play games with the sample, you know, and it goes back to Alfred Kinsey saying that 10% of the population is gay, and an outrageous number of people are actually having affairs on their wives.
Dr. Morse: Well, he oversampled sex predators. Okay, wait, this is not representative sampling. This is a problem, right? So that that with that, with that birth. And then a lot of the studies that have to do with gay parenting and stuff like that, there’s a lot of there’s a lot of ways of manipulating the sample. So when when you were talking about the the fact that in the turn away study, they ended up with 500 women out of a potential of 160,000 or something like that.
Dr. Morse: It’s not the number I want to I want you to draw out this for us. It’s not it’s it’s possible in principle to take a random sample so that you’re not you don’t have a huge number. You’re not looking at the whole population, but but to sample randomly. The problem with the turn away study is that we have no idea how how they did it.
Dr. Morse: Right. And the reason I want to mention that is that my friend Mark Regnier, as whom you may know or know of, did an important study on gay parenting for which he got his brains beat out, basically. You know, I mean, people really went after him. But what he did was he engaged a company. I guess there are companies that do sampling for you.
Dr. Morse: And he gave them the criteria, you know, and you make random phone calls and you draw the people in and you oversample gays so that you have enough to study statistically and stuff like that. But that was how that was designed to be random. And he didn’t do it.
Dr. Coleman: He didn’t say, yeah.
Dr. Morse: You do it right. Yeah. So yeah, respond to that a little bit. If you were just to help people see the importance of this of of just how bad the study actually is.
Dr. Coleman: You’re absolutely right about that. Because if you’re doing a random and it isn’t just the number, if you do random selection, then you have, almost a guarantee that if you’re not, if you have a signif a decent enough size that it’s going to represent the population depends on the size of the population size of the sample. But you’re the the probability that you’re going to reflect that population is so much greater with that, with a, you know, probability type sampling method.
Dr. Coleman: And so, you know, that is huge. And and then, they kind of touched on other issues. Oftentimes when your results that are, you know, derived, you know, not thinking about the turn away study, but other studies that might show it’s problematic. It’s a huge hurdle to get them published in the first place. I went through that early in my career, and then Doctor Ferguson, through the editors, will not publish strong data that goes against the political, you know, agenda of the times.
Dr. Coleman: And, and before we get off of this, turn away study, there are two other flaws that I think are huge. One is that the measures they use, they, they measured self esteem and satisfaction with a single item and any complex construct like that requires multiple indicators of the issue. And then with the, with their anxiety and depression, each of those measures were six items.
Dr. Coleman: When there are probably hundreds of established measures in the in the literature, good instruments that can be used reliably. So there how they were assessing those outcomes was not valid. And so, you know, that’s another big issue, another issue that I, you know, I find hard to believe that they got away with this is, you know, early on and I said that we that they looked at women who were right before the gestational cut off in various states or women, who that turned away.
Dr. Coleman: Well, in the States that, that, you know, in this country, the gestational limit varies dramatically from at that time from like ten weeks to 22 weeks. So they’re including women at different points of pregnancy. And we have a literature that shows when women are more advanced in their pregnancies, they’re going to have more trouble. I mean, it’s so obvious why if somebody is waiting from six months to having a baby, they don’t want to have that.
Dr. Coleman: Or maybe, you know, they’re experiencing some significant finding with that child who’s moving, I mean, so later from the start are undeniably more traumatic. And so we don’t even really know about, you know, those groups of, you know, some of them might have a first trimester, several first trimester, others will have later second trimester, just depending on the gestational cutoff time.
Dr. Coleman: And so, I mean, it’s just it’s just unbelievable what it what about a study of those?
Dr. Morse: And when you have the kind of funding that they have and you’re designing the study yourself, they surely could have gathered that information. They surely could have asked the question and how you know what, how far along? I don’t know how you worded exactly, but how far along were you when you actually had the womb? That’s a control variable.
Dr. Morse: That’s a control variable. And, and and nobody asks and there’s nobody questioned them about this about. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But given the amount of money that they had to work with, you know, didn’t you mentioned at the beginning you kind of went over that quickly. Would you say that again? Who financed this or and did it, was it directly or indirectly financed.
Dr. Morse: How did that actually work?
Dr. Coleman: Actually, I know Warren Buffet contributed $88 million to this effort. I’ve got to quote something. I don’t think it’s right in front of me, but it was from a, an article by Martin, where he described the funding and also, indicated that, that, that the incentive was to, to, to make sure data to ahead of time, you know, to, to, to, generate a study and articles that show is not traumatizing to women.
Dr. Coleman: So they had a plan for the results prior to conducting the study. So that’s not science. Yeah. I mean, you know, the motive was to have these articles for litigation.
Dr. Morse: Right? Right. And I seem to remember reading reading about that, after the the case in Texas where, some of the medical regulations that the state of Texas had enacted, those were turned away. Those were was were swept away by a court case. And after the court case, it came out, who had paid for all these studies that were cited?
Dr. Morse: And I remember UCSF was right in the middle of that of that whole thing. And Warren Buffett wasn’t the only guy pumping money into it.
Dr. Coleman: Well, right.
Dr. Morse: So let’s now talk in a little bit more detail about the, the people who demanded the retraction. Because I think the typical person doesn’t really know what that process was. So if I, if I got the timeline right, these two demands for retraction happened in very close succession to each other. So do you think they were related to each other, or is it the same group of people both times, or what do you think about.
Dr. Coleman: Well, to the credit of the British journal psychiatry three, they shared with me the letter that was called that know. Now we’re at 17 or 18 academics calls for retraction of my meta analysis. And it was a it was unbelievably poorly done at work. And that just shows the arrogance. It was a page and a half double spaced call for retraction signed by 18 people.
Dr. Coleman: My rebuttal was 40 single spaced pages. But, I knew all of the names. Two of them were experts on the other side and cases that I had, been retained for. A few of them were return away study, answers. They all had some connection to a pro-choice agenda. So I brought that out in my rebuttal letter to the, to the editor, for his consideration with that committee.
Dr. Coleman: So that was very transparent. And unfortunately, it was eight months of waiting, and I knew the meta analysis had been brought into evidence for at least, you know, 24, cases in the United States and that 14 cases in six countries. And so if that paper had been retracted, I didn’t even want to begin to think about what that would mean for laws that have been established.
Dr. Coleman: And so it was eight months of just being, you know, I prepared I wrote the rebuttal rate a lot and I just yeah, I know yeah.
Dr. Morse: I was what was their argument about the 2011 paper and why it should be retracted?
Dr. Coleman: Well, some of the issues were that we mentioned earlier in that broadcast were there not that ten of the studies had been my studies, but they met the inclusion criteria. You know, so there were a variety of different things that all of that was addressed in the rebuttal and considered, the situation with the frontiers article was completely behind closed doors.
Dr. Coleman: I was just told that there were about to issue an expression of concern, and typically an expression of concern is posted with an article. Prior to the decision to retract, it had only been published in June, and I think this began like in October. So they went after that because it it showed that that paper shows very definitively, how poor the study is with all of the methodological issues laid out in detail.
Dr. Coleman: They wanted that kind of literature as fast as they could, so they didn’t tell me who. I’m sure it was some of the same people because they didn’t tell me. They didn’t tell me who. They didn’t give me a chance to write a rebuttal. Even with lawyers on board, they just went full speed ahead and retracted it. And what I think is interesting about that retraction, the only one that I found is that it’s still posted on their website, and it’s getting all this attention, even though it has read retraction letters stamped across.
Dr. Coleman: It’s getting up to it’s being downloaded. Read a lot. I think there have been over 21,000 views and reads, so I do plan to submit it elsewhere, but I’m rather concerned with it up there having been retracted. So the you know, because of the bias in science and, you know, I, I at first I thought, oh, great. You know, they they’ve got me here now I won’t be able to serve as an expert.
Dr. Coleman: Well, every case that I’ve been retained on since they said we’re not worried about them at all, you know. So I them because of the nature of the article and yeah, I do I, you know, I, I’m still weighing whether it makes sense to submit an answer because I did retain, copyright. So some version of that I probably will submit elsewhere.
Dr. Morse: Do you think it’s an exaggeration here, here’s what it was. The first thought that came through my mind. Not only did they want the article out of circulation, in both cases, both the 2011 article and the 2022 article, they wanted them out of circulation, but they also wanted to discredit you as a witness. And they and they wanted to harm your reputation, because you’re the best, you know, you’re a very aggressive opponent on the other side.
Dr. Morse: And if they could take you out in one fell swoop that solve a lot of their problems, you know, they should.
Dr. Coleman: Definitely. The agency has been way up since I’ve. I’ve been involved as an expert because many experts it’s not it’s very hard work. The timelines are ridiculous. The pressure, the aggressiveness. And so you have to kind of have the personality to be able to endure it. And and you have to have, you know, published in that area. It’s it’s, you know, it’s it’s it’s the hardest, even parenting, it’s got to be the hardest job in the world to really just this is rough.
Dr. Coleman: And so many experts are discredited. They might be in a case or two, and then they mess up and they’re off the circuit. But I, by the grace of God, I have endured, and one of the last trial testimony was in Georgia in 22. And Juliet Kay with the ACLU cross-examined me. And she’s like their Top Gun and, you know, and I, I did fine, you know, and I, you know, I’ve learned that I, you study and you’re conveying truths and, and it’s, you know, if you’re answering questions truthfully, if you don’t know something, it’s okay to say that it’s okay.
Dr. Coleman: That request the document. I mean, so I’ve learned a lot about how this process, goes. And that’s why I, you know, big initiative of, you know, a personal desire for me is to help train other experts with all this experience that I’ve had. Because you can read about there are books on how to be an effective expert witness spectator apply to this area.
Dr. Coleman: I mean, that kind of applies, but but there are challenges in this area that are so much different from your average expert witness or.
Dr. Morse: Yes. And and I want to emphasize also that when you’re being deposed or when you’re testifying in court, you are under oath. And that means if you are, if you say something, deliberately incorrect, I mean, a mistake, I suppose is one thing. But if you say something you know is untrue, that’s called perjury. And that’s not that’s a big deal.
Dr. Morse: That’s a big deal. And so what I wonder is when you when you’re out and about being an expert witness, this is a little inside baseball, but some of our people will find it interesting when you’re being an expert witness and you see people on the other side, like, like if any of these turn away study people would be put under oath.
Dr. Morse: Have you ever seen them under oath and answering, responding to some of the issues that you’ve brought up.
Dr. Coleman: Question of witnesses. So you don’t get to say you get to read the other side reports. Obviously you do rebuttal reports. So you go back and forth in writing, but actual trial testimony or deposition testimony I have received and you do receive deposition transcripts from the other side of the court, trial transcripts. But actually listening to these people and watching them on the stand, it happened for the first time in that Georgia trial.
Dr. Coleman: We were all there. I it were two days of testimony. And, I was amazed by it, by the, you know, that just, you know, outright falsification of information or just not knowing, their side experts did unbelievably bad. I had no idea how bad it could be. And our experts, you know, did really well. And and the judge ended up ruling, under like, a constitutional basis issue without didn’t even reflect on trial at all because they didn’t give they didn’t give them anything to use.
Dr. Coleman: And then it ended up we knew he was going to vote on their side. He did. And I followed it somewhat. And then the Georgia Supreme Court upheld the ban on the six week ban. So anyway, it was it was very eye opening to me. And, and, you know, I noticed that a lot of the expert reports seemed to be written similar style.
Dr. Coleman: So it makes you wonder who’s really writing this report.
Dr. Morse: Yeah, but I had one episode of being an expert witness, and as it turned out, it was it never went to trial. But I was deposed. I spent a whole day being deposed. And it’s it’s quite an experience. It is really quite an experience. Yeah. Let me make let me make sure I haven’t missed anything. Because this is so very fascinating.
Dr. Morse: Okay. So, so as of now, one of your papers is still in the, in the literature. One of them is retracted, but it’s still out there, but with big red letters on it. You’re being scolded in public, more or less. Right. And you haven’t decided yet whether you’re going to publish it somewhere else. But.
Dr. Coleman: That’s right.
Dr. Morse: But the information is still out there. For those of you who are involved in this area in any way, if you’ve if you’ve had the turn away study, put in your face and said, see, it’s really safe. It’s really, really fine. You now know where you can go to get some of the information that you might need to respond to that.
Dr. Morse: And you now know that the turn away study is not a piece of gold. You know, the turn away study has a lot of serious problems.
Dr. Coleman: Jennifer. And that’s another thing we’re offering up the Institute website. We have PowerPoint presentations on lots of topics. And one is the turn away study. So anybody can download a PowerPoint explaining all these flaws. And we also with each of the PowerPoints we now have what we’re calling research recaps. So they’re factsheets with the references to support them.
Dr. Coleman: So and it’s the a goal was to write these PowerPoints in ways that were accessible to anybody. You don’t have to have a big scientific background or training, so anyone can. Everything’s free on our site. Encourage people to look at what’s there. You lose the information in any way. They you maybe look at the PowerPoint and then look at the actual journal article to, just, you know, compare and get a little more depth if it’s needed.
Dr. Morse: And just feel confident that we have the truth on our side here, that she’s not making stuff up. This woman has been through the mill. She has run the gantlet and she survived. Look at her. I mean, the the internet’s not exactly cooperating, but she’s doing great issues. And the last thing I always like to ask people is, is how can people help you?
Dr. Morse: How can people be involved with what you’re doing? What, action item do you have for people of ways that they can be involved in, in spreading this information?
Dr. Coleman: Well, I guess, probably the at this point, the, the biggest help to the work that I’m involved in and with Caitlin and Institute would be to just check out the site, look at what’s there, maybe provide suggestions of what we need to add, what’s, you know, for different, audiences. There may be certain materials that we’re not so jingle.
Dr. Coleman: So would love to have people, check out the site. We have a wonderful web developer. My daughter is the organizational planner, and, and my, one of my sons does writing, does summaries. And so we will be expanding our, our base in terms of employees next year. And so we’re always open to ideas and, and just want to get the word out to crisis pregnancy centers that, you know, if you need information in mental health and adolescents or whatever topic you need and substance abuse.
Dr. Coleman: We even have one on sex trafficking and how that relates to this, related to that industry. And there’s just lots of information and all comes from the scientific literature. So you can rest assured that that it’s truthful information.
Dr. Morse: Well, you know, as we like to say that that science is now supporting the ancient teachings of the Christian church, that, that, that that traditional Christian sexual ethics is reasonable and it is humane. It is the most humane system that you can come up with. And even though it may seem like sometimes bending the rules might work short term or in my situation, but overall, no.
Dr. Morse: Overall, the the the traditional Christian sexual ethics builds a society that strong for everyone. Doctor Priscilla Coleman, I want to thank you so much for being my guest on today’s episode of The Doctor J show. It has been a real pleasure spending this time with you and many blessings on your work.
Dr. Coleman: Well, thank you Jennifer. It’s been just an absolute pleasure and hope to see you again soon. Thank you.
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About the Ruth Institute
The Ruth Institute is a global non-profit organization, leading an international interfaith coalition to defend the family and build a civilization of love.
Jennifer Roback Morse has a Ph.D. in economics and has taught at Yale and George Mason University. She is the author of The Sexual State and Love and Economics – It Takes a Family to Raise a Village.
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