Stacy Trasancos | The Dr. J Show
A clear and compassionate explanation of the moral, scientific, and spiritual issues surrounding IVF and assisted reproductive technologies. With insights from chemistry, theology, and philosophy, the discussion explores human dignity from the moment of conception, the meaning of love in bringing new life into the world, and the risks of treating children as products rather than gifts. Personal stories and logical reasoning highlight the deep emotional and societal implications of reproductive loss, infertility, and the growing industry built around assisted reproduction, while offering hope, healing, and a deeper understanding of the human person.
IVF is not the Answer Book:
https://sophiainstitute.com/?product=ivf-is-not-the-way (Sofia Institute)
https://a.co/d/fAlYPAT (amazon)
Dr. J’s Interview with Katie McMann:
https://youtu.be/AlqJvy5IX8o
https://youtu.be/g_rbE5j2gYo
Shiloh IVF Ministry:
https://www.shilohivf.com/
Ruth Institute’s Conception Brochure:
https://ruthinstitute.org/product/children-and-donor-conception-and-assisted-reproduction/
00:00 Introduction
03:43 Introducing Stacy
06:50 The Journey from Science to Faith
09:35 Understanding Infertility and Miscarriage
12:42 The Moral Case Against IVF
15:27 The Dignity of the Human Person
18:39 The Role of God in Human Dignity
21:13 The Current Cultural Context for IVF Discussion
29:50 The Love Behind the No to IVF
32:58 The Consequences of IVF
35:46 Personal Stories and Marital Impact
38:22 The Future of Reproductive Technology
42:37 The Psychological Impact of Anonymous Donorship
43:50 The Need for Love in Human Development
46:32 The Role of Heritage and Identity
49:14 The Commodification of Life
55:43 Hope and Redemption in Reproductive Choices
01:02:02 Final Words
01:03:25 Real Estate Commercial (1).mp4
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Transcript
(Please note the transcript is auto-generated and likely contains errors)
Ruth Institute (03:43)
Dr. Stacey Trisankos, welcome to the Dr. J Show.
Stacy Trasancos (03:47)
Thank you for having me on. It’s such an honor to be here with you. I appreciate the work you do so much.
Ruth Institute (03:53)
Well, thank you. I’m very grateful for your book. know, this is turning out to be a big issue, IVF. so we’ve, well, we’ll talk about it, but we’ve been talking about this with a number of people. So let’s start by, why don’t you tell us about your academic background and also what is your main occupation these days?
Stacy Trasancos (04:14)
That’s a very good question. My academic background is the unlikely story of a scientist becoming a woman of faith. I pursued, I grew up Baptist, but went off to college to pursue a degree in science and abandoned my childhood religion. And I have a PhD in chemistry then from Penn State University. And it wasn’t until about five years after I graduated with that PhD that I
wanted to become Catholic, long story. But once I became Catholic, about four years into it, I wanted to pursue dogmatic theology. So I have a master’s degree in dogmatic theology just because I wanted to understand our faith better and I liked the formulas of dogmatism. And then later on, a few years ago, I realized that really to understand theology and science and bridge the two, I needed to know philosophy. So I have…
In addition to the PhD in chemistry, I have two master’s degrees, one in dogmatic theology and the other one in systematic philosophy. And I’m working on a second PhD in philosophy now just because I really think there’s so much there to figure out about how we view matter in our world today. And we’re talking about atoms and all of that is because of understanding ourselves as human persons.
Ruth Institute (05:40)
Well, that’s very interesting. It’s a very interesting background. You’re right. It’s very unique. I’m more from the sciency end of things myself because my PhD is in economics, right? But the church needs every discipline. The church needs wisdom in all of these different subject matter areas, but we’re all drinking from the same very deep well of theology and philosophy. That’s the way I look at it. And what is your main occupation now, Stacey?
Stacy Trasancos (05:57)
Yes.
Well,
I started teaching online classes from home way before COVID. And when COVID happened, I got a lot more classes. So I’ve sort of mapped out a full-time occupation as an online adjunct professor at three different Catholic institutions, teaching courses related to science and theology. Sometimes just science, sometimes just theology, sometimes science and the church kind of stuff. But I’ve made a little…
niche for myself there and I’m very grateful to have done that because I really like being able to teach but doing it from home where I can be with my own family. So I’m living my best life.
Ruth Institute (06:46)
Yes. There you go. There you go.
So now I want to ask you about how you happen to become interested in the issues surrounding artificial reproductive technologies. And I think you have your own story with fertility issues and so on. so however you would like to tell that story of how you became interested in this topic, that would be great.
Stacy Trasancos (07:08)
I’ll try not to give the long version from when I was a zygote, but it really has been a coming to understand myself. That’s what faith has meant to me, is understanding who God made us to be. And I tell in the book, when I read that line in the catechism that children are the supreme gift of marriage, that word gift changed so many things in my mind. I honestly…
Ruth Institute (07:12)
I can’t.
Stacy Trasancos (07:36)
thought of children and all human persons as just collections of atoms and molecules, highly complex composite systems, just material nonetheless. And so when I read that word gift and I was open to faith, I really came to understand that the human person is a gift, that children are a gift and we’re all children of someone. So we’re all gifts and it helped me understand what marriage is too. So my quest for the truth,
of matter and atoms and science and faith has really been a quest to understand the human person. Who are we and what are we doing here? And then as a mother who have seven children that are born and seven and counting grandchildren. So it’s been a lot of just trying to understand what it means to have a rational soul with intellect and free will, even as a mother respecting the free will of my children and my husband.
and exercising my own good judgment. So it is a quest for truth. And I really think the human person is that unity of faith, science, and philosophy, theology, science, and philosophy that really is the big struggling point for a lot of people.
Ruth Institute (08:51)
And do you know, I’m a cradle Catholic, pre-Vatican II background. And in fourth grade, I memorized the Baltimore Catechism because that’s what people did. That’s what people did back then. And the one question and answer that has been extremely helpful to me is what is man? And man is a creature composed of body and soul made in the image and likeness of God. Well, it’s simple enough that a fourth grader can understand it.
Stacy Trasancos (08:56)
Thank
my gosh!
I
Ruth Institute (09:19)
sort of, you know, but you can meditate on it, you know, and kind of never really get to the bottom of it. It’s so deep in a way. But I feel like that little formula in my head has kept me away from going off the rails, you know, because people go off the rails in a lot of different directions, as you know.
Stacy Trasancos (09:31)
Mm-hmm.
Ruth Institute (09:35)
When you started your family, you have a rather large family if you have seven children, seven living children. When you talk about IVF, do people ever give you a hard time and say, you know, how can you possibly understand the pain of infertility when you have seven children? How do you respond to that, Stacey?
Stacy Trasancos (09:54)
Well,
yes, that was the first thing I heard when I posted the book cover. That was the first pushback I got from women who had used IVF, that, who am I to tell them what they should or should not do? And it’s not me telling them what they should or should not do. I’m conveying the teaching of the Catholic Church, the magisterial wisdom guarded through the ages. But it also confused me because
In my own conversion, that is precisely what I had to get my head around was understanding that we’re all human persons from the very first moment of our existence. And I had five miscarriages, but even with the children that lived, and I didn’t know if they were gonna live while I was carrying them, I had to confront this idea of loving and abstraction. I had to confront this idea of loving my embryos as embryos.
So on one hand as a chemist, having worked my whole life in the world of atoms, which is an abstraction anyway, I was kind of okay with the critical thinking and abstraction part of it, of understanding that things are real even if you can’t see them with your own naked eyes. But it also was a confrontation because I don’t really love atoms. I loved my children and learning to mourn
the loss of embryos and early miscarriage, learning to first acknowledge them as full members, little trisankoses, full members of our family, and then to grieve the loss of them, of five of them. You know, if someone lost five toddlers in a row, the whole community would turn out to help this person grieve. But when you lose five children in miscarriage, it’s a very lonely loss. But…
Logically speaking, those are my children, those are my children and they die. And I kind of had to confront that kind of loss, that kind of love. And what it made me realize what those miscarried children taught me because of my love for them and my prayers for them is that every day of parenting is an exercise in letting go. Those children are gifts. They were never ours in the first place. They are entrusted to us.
by God to do the best we can to raise them in love. And so that’s what these embryos are. When people go to pursue IVF in our society, we all can be concerned about that because to the extent that children are not conceived in the intimate kind of love the church talks about, but are conceived in a laboratory, it’s not right. To the extent that those children are then put in freezers to be stored until someone’s ready to raise them, it’s not right.
And I come at this issue from that perspective. I also have followed embryonic stem cell research for a decade, and I know what scientists do with these embryos and why they want them. So I don’t like where we are in our society, and that’s why I’m speaking out as a mother and a citizen.
Ruth Institute (13:02)
Yes. And I want to go back to the miscarriage part because the oftentimes, not oftentimes, but one scenario of a desperate infertile woman is the woman who cannot carry the childhood term herself and who then not only wants IVF, but also wants a surrogate and so on. So there’s tremendous amount of grief and pain associated with being unable to conceive. And so you had the pro.
We had the problem in our marriage of not being able to conceive for four years. And then when we finally did conceive, it was like it was not supposed to be possible, right? So I’ve been through that end of it. You’ve been through the end of it of the pregnancy loss. And yet at the same time, both of us are saying, yes, we understand your pain. Those of you who are thinking this is an option and are considering it or maybe have done it, we understand the pain and we’re still convinced that it’s really not right. You know, that there’s something,
lacking in the social understanding that we have of this whole process. And you said something that was very arresting to me. And that is, once you’ve had a miscarriage, then every pregnancy you have after that, you wonder if you’re going to be able to carry it to term. And so even the seven babies that you did finally give birth to, throughout that pregnancy, this is a question in your mind, am I going to be able to…
to sustain the pregnancy. And so that’s another kind of layer of insight, I think, into what this is like as moms. In your book, one of the things you do is you go through and defend the idea of, well, how do we, the moral case, let’s call it the moral case against IVF. You do it in a series of premises. It’s extremely logical and very clearly laid out. Can you just give people just an
an overview of what that argument looks like.
Stacy Trasancos (15:00)
It’s a 10-step argument. So in the book, I explain what a syllogism is and why this is a chain syllogism. And look, I go from God exists to IVF is wrong. And there are some Catholics that are like, okay, if the church says it’s wrong, I accept that. Like their faith is that solid. But we are also called to reason and faith.
Ruth Institute (15:15)
Right, right.
Stacy Trasancos (15:27)
Logically, you can’t make the leap from God exists to IVF is wrong. You have to fill it in step by step. And I like the flow of the logic. I any question you can ask about life and existence. The church has a very logical answer that’s tied into a whole lot of other doctrines. It all fits together so beautifully. And in this case,
Ruth Institute (15:52)
Yes, yes.
Stacy Trasancos (15:54)
I thought, well, you know, I really need to start with God exists because if I don’t start with God exists, how are you going to explain human dignity? And to explain human dignity, you need to understand that what you said earlier from the Baltimore Catechism that we’re body and rational soul made in the image and likeness of God. And to understand that, you have to understand that it’s not just that God exists, but that God exists and revealed things to us. So God became man.
to tell us about the Trinity, to tell us about the incarnation, obviously, to tell us about salvation. And so it’s not just that God exists, it’s that God communicates to us, and it’s that God communicates that self-image and likeness to us, and that we, that is where our dignity comes from, our intellect and will made in the image and likeness of God, the highest creatures. And you have to understand all of that before you can even get to the part about children are gifts.
and that children have a right to be born in the love that is united in marriage, bodily and spiritually, not spiritually, but bodily over there in the Petri dish, bodily and spiritually, in the most intimate of unions where two become one. We don’t say that about any other relationship. And that your child, me, you, every one of us, deserved and had a right to that kind of being.
loved into existence as you say in your brochures, is exactly the point. We have a right to that kind of love. And yeah, and then from there, the last premises get into why IVF is not that kind of love. So it builds up, but I really felt like I had to start with how we know.
Ruth Institute (17:24)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Stacy Trasancos (17:41)
what we are as human persons because that’s what the embryonic child is, the same as you and me. It’s a child deserving of love and we’re not loving them if we’re doing this to them, bringing them into production in a lab like their cattle and then storing them in freezers like they’re a TV dinner. It’s just, it’s not how we’re supposed to treat humans.
Ruth Institute (18:05)
And do you think that a non-believer would find this set of syllogisms persuasive?
Stacy Trasancos (18:12)
I invite the reader and the editors took me seriously at my word and really clawed into the book and I’m so grateful for that. I invite the reader to at least follow the logic and poke at it all you want. Because that’s how you become convinced of things. Poke at the logic all you want. And of course when we come to divine revelation, we have to talk about what it means to have faith in Christ.
and I talk about that and why faith in Christ is reasonable. But I invite someone who’s against IVF to go through all 10 premises and the sub-premises that are explained in the book. And if you can find somewhere where the logic takes a leap and is illogical or an invalid conclusion or a term that’s not clarified, let me know because I don’t think you will find that. think…
If there is, it’s my fault, not the church’s fault. I think the church gives us a beautiful full picture of why we should not be producing humans in the lab.
Ruth Institute (19:18)
Well, and you know, the overall point here is the dignity of the human person. sometimes people look at the Catholic Church and say, you’ve got a pope, you’ve got bishops, you’ve got all this hierarchy going on, you’ve got men over women, and you know, all this hierarchy that’s terrible, we like equality. But the fact is, in the most basic thing that’s really the most important, the church is the most egalitarian organization on earth because we think…
that the child in the womb is the same as the child in the arms, and that the child in the womb is the same as the child in the Petri dish. We think they all have dignity. And I think one of the things that’s happening in our culture, maybe you’ll get this pushback when you’re out and about talking about the book, but I think one of the things that’s happening in our culture is we have so many people who have either bracketed God or say they don’t believe in him. So this first line of argument that you’re making is not quite available to them.
But they want to hang on to the dignity of the person. And what our culture is, what the results we’re getting, like we reverse engineer, how did we get to where we are now? What we got there by taking out that foundational part that is the source of our human dignity. We’re doing all these things. I think most people understand that there’s something really wrong with society and the way we’re approaching things and stuff. But they’re not quite ready to say,
I got to bring God back into the picture. You know what I mean? So I don’t know, respond to that if you
Stacy Trasancos (20:48)
an editor suggested to me, and it’s in the book, if you start somewhere in the middle after God exists and you push God’s existence to the side and you start trying to defend human dignity, it’s like you will have some roots there, but it’ll be more like aerial roots and you’ll be missing the taproot that really gets underneath it all to why we believe what we believe.
I’m hoping that as we, my ideal here is, my hope is that some people read this book and they start having conversations with people who are in favor of IVF or who like our president has said, hopes IVF will help solve the low birth rate problem that will strengthen families. I hope people read the book, have conversations with people who are of that mind.
And not only do they convince them that IVF is contrary to human dignity and contrary to a stable society, but it also leads that other person to think more about his or her own relationship with God and own place in the universe. That’s the beauty of any of these issues. You can take it all the way back to, you know, what is the universe, who is God, and why are we here? And…
Ruth Institute (21:54)
Mm-hmm.
Right, right.
Stacy Trasancos (22:06)
there’s something very powerful in telling people the church is against IVF because the church defends the right to be loved of every single human being, including you. And when you tell that to somebody, now we’re all on the same side as the embryo. We all deserve that kind of love. And I think there’s just something so, I mean, I’m speaking from experience because I went from a cold hard
Ruth Institute (22:24)
Yeah, right, right, right? No, that’s-
Stacy Trasancos (22:34)
logical left brain chemists to being a mother of seven and to being open to the will of God. And I do remember what it was like to think that way. I mean, I count that as a blessing today, but it was a very lonely and confusing way to live because I didn’t have many roots for anything I believed.
Ruth Institute (22:51)
Yes.
Now, based on what you just said, there’s something I’d like to draw out about this. I think now is a particularly opportune time to be defending the church’s teachings around IVF. Do you agree with that? And if so, why? Why is this exactly the right moment for this book? Because I think it is.
Stacy Trasancos (23:19)
Yeah, and that’s, this is just like another one of those affirmations where you know God is in charge because I never planned to write a book about IVF. This wasn’t some issue that I set around pining about wanting to speak the truth about. I was interested in the human embryos that are used in scientific research, but Donald Trump said when he was running for president, he promised
that IVF, I think he called himself the father of IVF, he promised to review this situation in our nation and to make it more accessible, to reduce the cost and make it so more people could use IVF. And that was when I talked to the publisher and the publisher said, can you write a book on this? And I thought, well, goodness, how am I gonna write a book that might change the…
flow of the conversation in our nation, if I can’t get all the way underneath it down to the human being and the existence of God. And so I said, okay, I’ll do it. And the book turned into 300 and something pages. I think, you know, it’s a blessing that President Trump signed that executive order on February 18th. He called for a three month review. And so the publisher was like, okay, we have to get this book out.
during that three month review because the conversation is going to come back into the news media I think pretty soon because we’re at the end of that period. think pretty soon everybody’s going to be talking about it and it is really time for Catholics to bring it. We got so much momentum as Catholics in the world right now with with the new Pope and with so many people in the administration being Catholics. We have a real chance to
Ruth Institute (24:49)
Yeah. Yes.
Stacy Trasancos (25:12)
know, God willing show the love of Christ to so many people in our nation. And we won’t just strengthen families that way. We will, we will heal people. That’s it’s important.
Ruth Institute (25:22)
Yeah, yeah.
And, you know, when the, perhaps you were thinking of the Alabama Supreme Court case, and when that case happened, and just to review for people who maybe don’t remember this, there was a case in the state of Alabama where some frozen embryos, somebody dropped them negligently, and the Alabama Supreme Court, and the parents of those embryos sued the fertility clinic.
and the Alabama Supreme Court said, yes, they have a right to sue under the Alabama’s Wrongful Death Act, meaning that those embryos were recognized as persons. Well, this created a huge uproar, but the huge uproar was constructive in this way, Stacey. Here’s what I think. And I talked to John DiCamillo about this, and you probably know John, but it was a constructive uproar because it revealed the contradiction that’s at the heart of the IVF.
Stacy Trasancos (26:08)
Okay.
Yes, love it.
Ruth Institute (26:19)
industry. And as an economist, I look at it as an industry. And the industry is we are selling people something they want, namely a genetic child of their own genes to whom they have undisputed parental rights. Whether, no matter where the other parent is, you have undisputed parental rights to your own genetic material in this child. That’s the product we’re selling. But to make it cheap, we treat a bunch of those products like
medical waste. we mass produce them and throw away whole lot of them. And that’s what the issue was, because if Alabama had not said what it said, and they said, no, you have no right to sue, what does that say? You know, that says these aggrieved parents have no recourse. mean, so there’s a contradiction right at the heart of the industry itself, what it’s saying about itself on one hand and on the other hand, they’re saying two completely different things about what they’re doing.
Stacy Trasancos (27:19)
Yes, and that’s still got a lot of people thinking, I think, because there is a lot of questions about the moral status of the embryo. Like, that’s not a phrase we would use as Catholics, because I’m not going to say, what’s the moral status of Dr. J, as if it’s something different from my own moral status. Like, we don’t talk about each other that way, but we’re talking, at least we’re talking about the moral status of the embryo and whether they should be stuck in these cryogenic nurseries.
Ruth Institute (27:24)
Mm.
Right.
Stacy Trasancos (27:49)
You know, they’re not dead, but they’re not allowed to grow either that it’s the church called it an absurd fate and it is because We have one to four million of them. Nobody knows for sure exactly how many I heard someone say they that was in your brochure that they keep better genealogical records of cattle and livestock than they do these children and and it’s just it’s
Ruth Institute (27:49)
Right.
Yeah. Yeah.
Stacy Trasancos (28:15)
It’s horrifying, but I’m glad at last we’re at least having the conversation as these things come to the forefront. mean, those parents in Alabama, I remember reading, they were told they had a right to sue, but the counter argument was…
you’re going to kill your children anyway. Like some of these parents had already said if they were still there after five years, it’s okay if they’re killed anyway or donated to science. And so one of the pushbacks was what moral right do you have parents to be upset now? And the way the rule of when is they let the parents sue, but they also said the parents also may dispose of the children. So that’s not a satisfactory outcome.
Ruth Institute (28:48)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
No, no, it’s not. It’s not. 100%. And because people are talking about it, we have to help people talk about it. We have to help people understand what the issue is. So I want to call attention to something that a certain Cardinal Ratzinger said back in 2008. There’s a document called Dignitas Personae on certain bioethical questions. So
The Catholic Church was thinking about this already in 2008, and it’s directly to the point that you guys are always telling us no. Why can’t you say yes once in a while? Okay, so Cardinal Ratzinger makes this point, and I want you to unpack this. Behind every no in the difficult task of discerning between good and evil, there shines a great yes to the recognition of the dignity and inalienable value of every single and unique human being called into existence.
So what are we saying yes to? When we say no to IVF, what are we saying yes to, Stacey?
Stacy Trasancos (30:22)
We’re saying yes to love. And I say that in a very exacting way because I’m not, as a chemist, I’m not someone who likes poetry and things like that. We’re saying yes to love because think about what that means. It means we all have to get our head around loving these embryos.
And we use that argument in the abortion debate all the time. Imagine if they’re not embryos, but imagine if they’re two-year-old children. Just imagine for the sake of argument, there are people who are trying to produce two-year-old children in a lab. They’re gonna grow them in a lab until they’re ready to raise them. And then if they don’t wanna raise them and there’s too many children that were grown, they’re gonna put the ones they don’t want in a freezer. That is not…
love. That’s not how we love another human being. And society as a whole absolutely would say no to that. But we’re not saying no, you can’t do what you want with these children because you want to have them. We’re saying yes to loving these children. And I really have come to the conclusion over the years, if each one of us understood that kind of radical love of neighbor, of
of knowing that your neighbor next door and the man you cross on the street and the person you sit next to on the bus, they all were loved into existence by God. They all are children of God and they all have that kind of radical love from God. We say no to a whole lot of things because we’re saying yes to the love of those people. And so it is a radical concept because I mean all of our laws and our nations and
and our public policy, it’s all trying to do the right thing. But if you’re not starting with the absolute unadulterated, unfiltered love of your neighbor, love of neighbor and love of God, you’re gonna get it wrong. And so the big yes there is saying yes to loving other people. And that thought goes with me in every single day of my life. I think it’s the most profound thing I’ve ever heard, that God loves us all.
It’s childlike, but it’s so profound. When you get frustrated with someone who cuts you off in your car, or you have to stand in the line at the grocery store, you start to empathize with your fellow human being, regardless of his or her state in life. And that really, really, really changes the way we think about public policy and just doing our daily lives.
Ruth Institute (32:35)
You
Now, to go back in detail to IVF itself, this is the principle that’s guiding everything. Some people would think of the following as the simplest case, the most morally acceptable case, the best case scenario, where the husband and wife use their own gametes and they only create one embryo and they bring that embryo to term. There’s still a problem with that.
tell us what the problem is. You kind of already have, but let’s just lay it out there to be sure people have it.
Stacy Trasancos (33:32)
And the church examined that question thoroughly because it’s called the simple case IVF where everything else is right except how the child is brought into existence. And the reason that IVF is wrong even in that case is because it separates the unitive and the procreative aspect of the conjugal act.
I like the way Joseph Boyle said it in a Lenaker article in 1988. He said it separates the life giving from the love making. And I love that, because that makes sense. That the only way to be loved into existence, your words, is to unify the love making and the life giving. Contraception takes away the life giving part of that union.
IVF takes away the love making part of that union. And you can’t do either one. Both of them commoditize other human beings. They commoditize the woman or they commoditize the man or they commoditize the child. And so that’s what’s underneath it all. You can’t separate those two things. So even the simplest case IVF with no extra embryos and a loving man and woman.
You can’t, in that cooperation with God, where you want to bring into existence a new human being, say, never mind God, we don’t need you right now, and then take over and dominate and do it in a lab.
Ruth Institute (35:05)
Mm-hmm. And that’s the simplest case. That’s the easiest case. And a lot of our evangelical brothers and sisters will refer to that case. But it’s actually, in a way, not relevant because right now the law in every state of the United States is, well, not quite exactly, but very close to anybody with money gets to do anything they want. I mean, that’s close to. And if that’s not true in your state, you can go to California. And if you have money, you can do anything you want.
So what are some of the practical problems that arise from that? Walk us through some of those. And I don’t know, I have my own little collection of stories that I’ve collected over the years, or maybe you have some of the, yeah.
Stacy Trasancos (35:44)
Well, and
I’ll keep it short, I interviewed some women who are Catholics, who are, I interviewed one family in particular who is very close to the simple case IVF that we just described. Loving marriage, committed marriage, tried for over a decade to have children. And after two children were born from IVF,
Ruth Institute (36:00)
Uh-huh.
Stacy Trasancos (36:11)
The couple still stayed together, they still have their marriage, they’re raising those kids. Still that one choice the woman told me, she didn’t know that 12 years later when these children are 12 years old, it would have caused such a wedge in her marriage because she could never take away the instance that their children came into being by not cooperating with God.
The husband was collecting sperm in another room, you know how that’s done, and that when the embryo was put into her body, it wasn’t by her husband. He was passive, unneeded. It was a doctor doing it. And she said, that broke something in our relationship that we couldn’t talk about for years. And she said it just squeezed into the relationship.
Ruth Institute (37:00)
Wow!
Wow.
Stacy Trasancos (37:06)
because they raise these kids, you know, and they want, and she said what breaks my heart about it is those children are now 12 or 13 years old and my husband and I haven’t modeled a good marriage to them. And so I’m worried there’s going to be generational effects because of that one choice. And she said that I’m talking to you now because I wish somebody had told me this.
Ruth Institute (37:29)
Wow. I’ve heard a lot, I haven’t heard that one. I haven’t heard that one. it’s breaking my heart just sitting here thinking of it, because I do know of cases where the wife used somebody else’s sperm, or she used donor sperm. That creates enormous problems in the marriage. It creates identity problems. It creates marital problems. It’s…
Stacy Trasancos (37:36)
This has broke my heart.
Ruth Institute (37:56)
I don’t even want, and those problems are generational. They ripple through the generations because of what was done in the first instance and stuff like that. And then there, well, there are just a lot of these different scenarios that come up of people, there was a Japanese businessman who wanted to have lots of kids and he just kept buying surrogates and he had like 20 kids or something. I mean, they’re just.
When you come, we’re buying and human beings, you would think that the United States of America would have realized that this is not a good thing to be doing, you know, that you’re to be inviting the wrong kind of person to be doing the wrong kinds of things for the wrong kinds of reasons, you know, you can’t monitor that in any way, shapes or form. and here’s another kind of case. And I don’t know if you’ve encountered these, but I’ve encountered these of the
Stacy Trasancos (38:40)
Yeah.
Ruth Institute (38:51)
The sperm donor, you go to a sperm bank and you look through the catalog, know, a gay couple, two women will go and look through the catalog and they’ll pick out a donor that sounds good to them and so on and so forth. Well, and then they come to find out that the sperm donor lied. The sperm donor was not in fact a PhD in physics and he was not in fact doing all the things that he said he was doing. He was in fact a person who had mental health issues, including narcissism. Well, now what can possibly go wrong with a system where you don’t check?
and you allow a narcissist to come in and fill out his own form and you never check to see if he’s telling the truth. These women said, their exact quote was, I would have been better off picking up a hitchhiker on the side of the road. And so you go, wow, wow. And then the sperm mix-ups, the embryo mix-up or the sperm mix-up or all of those type of things.
Stacy Trasancos (39:36)
Well.
Ruth Institute (39:48)
As John DiCamillo put it this way, he said, we’re exposing these children to a set of risks that are unthinkable if you’re doing it in the natural way. It’s unimaginable that you could have the wrong baby if you and your husband are doing it. That’s not possible. So there are all these practical problems. I hope that mentioning the practical problems, this is in a way secondary, but for a lot of people, it’s what will get your attention.
Stacy Trasancos (39:56)
Yeah.
Right.
Bye.
Ruth Institute (40:17)
so that you ask the question, well, what is the fundamental issue here? Why are these things happening? It seemed like such a good idea. Why is this happening?
Stacy Trasancos (40:26)
yeah, it, you know, I was real careful not to start with all of that in the book because, you know, when I taught chemistry, I didn’t want to start with all the blowing stuff up experiments and the big on what, you know, I wanted to just get the basics down first and then look at all the explosions of consequences that that happened from this. And it it is scary to me because.
You know, some of these embryos that get donated to science, they’re trying to grow them in the lab. They’re trying to grow them past the 21 days that now is limited by the 21 day, the 14 day rule. They’re trying to grow them past, it’s 14 days. They’re trying to grow them past two weeks in the lab and they’re able to grow them past that point now. you know, we’re kidding ourselves if we don’t acknowledge what they’re trying to do is bring a baby to term completely in the lab.
Ruth Institute (40:53)
.
Stacy Trasancos (41:22)
with an artificial womb, fertilized in the lab, brought to term in the lab with an artificial womb. And what happens when they do it? Because I do think that will happen. I do think they’ll figure out how to do it. They’re not creating something new. They’re working with God’s laws in a dominating way that they shouldn’t be, but they’re still working with nature. They’re gonna figure out how to keep that embryo alive and growing. And then what do we do when we have people walking among us?
that were only created for a science experiment. How are we gonna deal with that? And looking way far ahead into this dystopian future, it’s gonna be Catholics who are gonna have to teach the rest of the world how to love those people too, because that’s what we’re all about. And so all the more reason right now for us to be teaching our children and grandchildren about this kind of radical love,
so they’ll be prepared for whatever comes. There’s artificial intelligence now, it scares me a little bit. I don’t know what’s gonna become of that, but we really need to get a handle on what it means to be human going forward.
Ruth Institute (42:34)
Yes.
Yes. And that case that you just described, I’m getting chills just sitting here thinking about it because that means that person was brought into existence, as you said, as a science experiment, but they could be bringing them into existence for other purposes. They could be breeding orcs who would be fighters or whatever it is. But whatever the purpose of the experiment is, what they’re saying is that it’s possible to be fully human without being loved.
And that’s incorrect. Okay, that cannot possibly be correct. And so what’s the significance of nurturing one person inside of another person? You know, some of the radical feminists love this stuff, right? Because in their minds, I forget who it was. Was it Simone de Beauvoir or Shulamith Firestone? Some of the radical feminists were, we need artificial wombs so that women are not.
oppressed by having to nurture babies. But then what is that person who comes into being without being nurtured? What are we doing to the psyche of that person, right? Talk about that if you dare.
Stacy Trasancos (43:50)
Yeah, well, I kind of, told a heartbreaking story in the book that I, and I hope I’m not going too far afield here of the question you asked. I saw it online somewhere and I can’t find the actual story anywhere, but I remember reading this online when I was scrolling through my feed. There was a woman who saw, who was posting, she was a social worker and there was a little boy that when he was a baby was taken away from his mother.
and he was put into a foster home. And this social worker throughout his childhood was the one who always was designated to go back and get him and take him to the next foster home. And she said, you know, as a baby, he just went along with it, but it broke something in him. And as he got to be a little older, he would protest. He didn’t want to leave the foster home where he was because he fit in. And the social worker had to take him and move him and move him. And she said he shut down at some point. He just turned off.
But then there was one day when he was in his early teens, he had a meltdown and he refused to go anymore. And he begged the social worker who had been the only stable thing in his life to adopt me. And the social workers post said the big, my biggest regret, the day of my biggest regret. And she told him on that day, I can’t afford to adopt you. And I’m really sorry that you have to keep going to these foster homes. And she was posting about it because
What happened to the boy is he got to be 18. He was let go out of the foster care system and they found him two weeks later shot dead in an alley by a gang. And the point of that story to me was, how many of us hear that and we just want to run back to that little boy and say, come here to me, you should have been loved. Like he knew it, he wanted it.
Ruth Institute (45:26)
Wow.
Stacy Trasancos (45:39)
The foster care people knew it, the social worker knew it, and then now it’s too late because he’s dead. How wrong is that? And it just broke my heart. And I think that is why we’re broken without love. We know a child should not be raised like that. And yet we’re doing that with embryos.
Ruth Institute (46:01)
Right. The guys in the lab are on the path to doing that, they don’t see anything wrong with it. And this is also where the church’s teaching is extremely powerful. And sometimes I say this to religiously mixed audiences, the human person is meant for love, and all Christian groups agree with that. You don’t have to be a Roman Catholic to think that. Every Christian should believe that, that the human person was created by love.
and created for love. And the psychologists will tell you flat out, without love, the child doesn’t develop properly. mean, that’s just a fact. That was the theme of my first book. I had an adopted child and that’s how we resolved our infertility. We had an adopted child and he turned out to be fine, but it was not a foregone conclusion that he would be fine because of all that he had been through and what some of his peers went through, other kids adopted at the same time in the same way. It was like,
You know, child needs love and without love, we really don’t develop correctly. don’t. That’s part of what it that’s part of what it means to be human. You know, in light of our new pope, this is going to sound like it’s off the wall, but it’s really not. We have a new pope, Pope Leo. We’re recording this within a very short time of his election.
Here in southwest Louisiana, there are a lot of people who are extremely excited because his last name is Prevost and our bishop’s name Provost. And so somebody actually called the diocese and said, did the Bishop of Lake Charles just become Pope? know, so no, no, he missed it by one vowel. But but but in these parts, the name Provost and the name Prevost are probably the same name. And there are a lot of people in Louisiana
who are very serious about their genealogy because these people have been the Cajun people and the Creole people have been here for hundreds of years in the same place, a very stable community anyway. And so there’s lots of racial mixing and all the rest of it. So there are all these people going around doing the genealogy on Pope Leo and they’re like, I’m his fourth cousin. People are very excited about it. And so I’m thinking to myself,
Stacy Trasancos (48:17)
Thank
Ruth Institute (48:24)
And it’s not just the Creole people who are excited about genealogy. A lot of people are excited about genealogy. But what are we doing to people psychologically when we say you were conceived by an anonymous sperm donor, a sperm seller, you know, you were conceived by in an anonymous way. The government says that your father is a legal stranger to you. We will promise to keep him away from you for the rest of your life.
What are we doing to people’s psyche when we cut, when somebody, when your mom deliberately cuts you off from half of your heritage, because that’s what you’re doing, and the government goes along with this, and the whole society goes along with this? Can you look down the road a little bit and tell, what do you see? What are we doing to ourselves doing a thing like that?
Stacy Trasancos (49:14)
Well, I think it breaks people. does something. You know, I’m what they call a Texas mutt. I don’t know my genealogy very far back because in Texas, as my parents put it, know, people just came from all over the place and blended. But I at least know three or four generations. You know, I know who my grandparents were. I know who their parents were. And there were stories passed down in my own heritage. And what we’re taking away from them is
that heritage. It’s hard to feel like, I mean, that’s part of what the Trinity revealed to us when Christ told us about the Holy Trinity. It revealed to us that we’re made for communion and taking away heritage is taking away communion. You don’t know your place in the world. And I’m thinking, just hearing you talk, I’m thinking about children who are adopted. How many problems do they just have not knowing?
Ruth Institute (49:54)
Yes.
Stacy Trasancos (50:08)
who their biological parents are. Some don’t have that problem, but a lot do. And they’re cut off from that. So I have a hard time imagining what it’s gonna be like when there’s more people who don’t know their heritage than there are people who do know it because it’s such a strong thing. I travel in Europe quite a bit. I’ve lived up in the Northeastern part of the United States. People like to know their heritage. They like to know where they’re from and who their people are.
And taking that away is just going to break something in the human. And I don’t think it’s insurmountable because we always are God’s children, that’s our heritage. But they’re gonna have to be Catholics out there constantly. We’re not gonna solve all the problems in this world, right? But we’ve gotta be constantly fighting the battle for truth, goodness, and beauty out there and equipping each people like.
Like we say the church is victorious, we’re victorious in the end, but at the same time, each time a soul is lost, that’s a very real loss. Think of my own children, I don’t want them to be lost. IVF is going in these directions and that’s one of the things that scares me about it as a citizen and why I think you don’t have to have suffered infertility.
Ruth Institute (51:14)
Right.
Stacy Trasancos (51:31)
to be qualified to speak about IVF.
Ruth Institute (51:34)
And you mentioned adoption. I’m an adoptive mom. My son is not particularly interested in meeting his birth parents. But as a society, we can’t assume that no child will be interested. We can’t assume, you know, it’ll have different impacts for different people, of course. But as a society, we have moved in the direction of saying, yeah, we want to make it possible for the adopted child.
Stacy Trasancos (51:46)
Right.
Ruth Institute (51:59)
to find their heritage. We want to have more openness in adoption for the sake of the mother and for the sake of the child. We think that is a good thing. To then turn around and do exactly the opposite with the conception itself is certainly self-contradictory. Here’s another thing. The language of donation, of sperm donation, you started by saying the child is a gift, every child is a gift.
And obviously I certainly agree with that and that we’re gifts to one another. actually there’s a lot of layers of that whole gift analogy. But we talk about sperm donors, we talk about egg donors, but in point of fact, they’re usually not donors. In point of fact, it’s usually a sale. It’s a commercial transaction that takes place. What do you think we’re doing to ourselves when we replace the…
authentic donation of the mother’s body donating, the mother donating her body to her husband, the husband donating his body to her, and then together creating a new life, who is then a gift to them, not a manufactured product, but a gift to them. Now we’re going to replace that with a series of commercial transactions. Talk us through that, Stacey. What do you think’s going to happen there?
Stacy Trasancos (53:14)
Yeah.
Well, it’s come up.
Ruth Institute (53:21)
What do you think is happening? What is happening?
The kids are already telling us something about what’s happening.
Stacy Trasancos (53:26)
Yeah, it’s commodification. It’s taking away from the child something the child had a right to. And whether the kids have that kind of language or not, they know they had a right to that and yet it’s being taken away from them. And a lot of it parallels what happened with contraception. When you use contraception, and I was a woman who used contraception because I didn’t know any different before I became Catholic.
you know that you commodify yourself. You say, I’m going to take this pill to mess up my own biology so that I can be used like an object. And you know that’s what you’re doing. And yet society says, well, you should do that so you don’t have to be burdened with a child. Well, now you’re commodifying the would-be child that you might have. You’re changing the whole way you’re thinking about the children. And it’s a step in the same direction to say to couples,
Instead of being open to God’s will for this bitter gift of infertility, because even that is a gift if you are infertile, instead of being open to what God has in store for you, you’re just going to commodify yourself and commodify the child and commodify your family because you think that’s what you want and what you must have. you know, I also ended the book with hope. Even if you make that decision, it’s not like
you sin so terribly that you can never get back on the right path, of course you can get back on the right path. There’s hope for turning things around back towards the good, which is why we talk about what is good and perfect, so we can always turn back towards that. But if you don’t turn back toward that, if there aren’t people out there evangelizing and teaching these truths and making the case for it, you just kind of end up lost, commodifying yourself and your family and…
people in society, you just end up in this lost place. And I think a lot of people when they get older, I think a lot of young people go down that path. And when they get older, they wake up one day and say, what is wrong? And they start looking for those answers. And thankfully they can find them in the Catholic Church or in the teachings of Christ.
Ruth Institute (55:36)
Yes.
Yeah, and you know, one thing that I think we should say 100 % with 100 % clarity, and it’s been implied, but I think we should state it. If you have used IVF, you must never regret the child. You must never regret the child. The child is a beloved child of God. And Stacey and I both affirm that. Catholic Church affirms that. We’re not saying that we wish the child didn’t exist. That’s not the point. We’re trying to help people understand that you deprived your child of something.
Stacy Trasancos (56:12)
Yeah, that was right.
Ruth Institute (56:12)
you gave them life, but you
withheld something. At the same time, you withheld something. it’s one thing for one person to do it, and it’s another thing for a whole society to say, this is what we’re gonna do as a group. We’re doing something very radical to our society in that kind of process. Stacey, you have any? And the other thing I wanna mention, the case that you mentioned, this couple that was, that 12 years later, they were aware that
they’ve done something to their marriage. Are they getting any help with that that you know of?
Stacy Trasancos (56:49)
so I didn’t pry too much, but my sense is that talking about it, at least acknowledging the problem is the first step. I’ve been married for 22 years and I had a mess of a life before I met my husband at age 33. And I know how hard it even has been, just speaking from my own struggles and my own marriage, mean, uniting to become one.
You have to be completely, it sounds pretty to say I give myself to you. It’s a whole nother ugly messy thing when you really give yourself to the other person. You open yourself, I felt like somebody took a chainsaw to my chest and ripped me open and all my guts fell out because I had to be that vulnerable with my husband. We figured out how to do it. And in the struggles in my own marriage, the first step in figuring out how to do it was looking at each other and saying, we have this problem.
and then holding hands and saying, by the grace of Christ in our marriage, we’re going to solve this problem. And I could talk about it now, because I’m on the other side of that parted Red Sea in the promised land. But for a long time, I wasn’t. And I did talk to this woman some about that. Just want to respect where she is and everything. But there is always hope. That’s my point.
Ruth Institute (57:57)
Right, right.
Mm-hmm.
Stacy Trasancos (58:10)
There is always
Ruth Institute (58:10)
Mm-hmm.
Stacy Trasancos (58:11)
hope. I’ve made so many wrong turns in my own life, even when I’m trying so hard to do the right thing, I still mess it up sometimes. There’s always hope. You’re constantly amending your life to turn back towards what is good. And so we gotta know what is good, not so we can feel like failures for not being there, but so we know which direction we should go. And so I really feel like just talking about it like that is gonna, my hope is, and this woman’s hope,
Ruth Institute (58:34)
Yes.
Stacy Trasancos (58:39)
She chose her anonymous name as Angela to mean angel, a messenger from God, because she wanted that message to get out to other couples that had used IVF.
Ruth Institute (58:52)
Well, part of the reason I asked about it is I’ve come across a ministry that actually helps people who have been through IVF and who in one way or another regret it. The most common thing that they’re helping people with is what to do with the frozen embryos, know, kind of walking them through that whole process. And this, woman who founded the thing, that’s what got her attention. They had done IVF and they had frozen embryos and they tried to bring them to term and none of them survived.
But that was what they could do. They did what they could do. And so I want people to be aware the Ruth Institute has what we call a resource center on our page called Healing from the Sexual Revolution or Recovering from the Sexual Revolution. And we have all kinds of different ministries on there. And one of them is Shiloh IVF that helps people with this issue. We’ve got people help you with infertility and all the parenting problems and domestic violence and you
And most of them, not all of them, but they’re all Christian people doing these ministries. They’re all Christian. A lot of them are Catholic, not all of them are Catholic, but they see there is a problem and therefore we will do something to try to solve the problem in a Christ-like manner. How does our Lord want us to deal with these problems? And so there’s a bunch of them out there. And if you’re struggling with any of these issues, I would invite you to go take a look at that on our website. And we have other videos on this topic here at the…
at the Ruth Institute YouTube channel as well, because these things need to be talked about. And if you’ve been through any of these things, it’s not a one and done kind of problem. It’s not a chemistry problem. It’s not an econ problem. You get the right formula and hey, we’re done. That’s not how this works. It’s always a step by step opening of the flower, you know, that you’ve got one step and then there’s more and then there’s more that you have to deal with. So Stacy.
Where can people get the book and how can they find more of your writing?
Stacy Trasancos (1:00:51)
The book is published by Sophia Institute Press, so they have it available on their website. It just came out May 20th, and I didn’t even announce it because I was visiting my oldest two children and decided to focus on my time with them instead of worrying about a book launch that day. But it is out now, and it’s available. You can get it on Kindle and in a hard copy.
Ruth Institute (1:01:10)
Hahaha!
Stacy Trasancos (1:01:19)
halfway through recording the audio for it because I like to listen to books, there it is, I like to listen to books on audible while I’m walking or cleaning house or doing dishes or something or driving. So that will be out soon. I have a sub stack called God and Elements. I don’t even have a website anymore. It’s all on my sub stack. If you wanna subscribe to that to follow my work and the issue of science and faith at large.
this and a lot of other questions. And also I’ve been on Facebook since like 2008. So you can find me on Facebook. I don’t really do much on the other social media platforms though I keep threatening to.
Ruth Institute (1:02:00)
Yeah. So,
Stacey, do you have any final words, any last points that you’d like to make for Ruth Institute followers, Catholic, non-Catholic, men, women, people who have watched this far are obviously committed to this topic. What last words do you have for us?
Stacy Trasancos (1:02:16)
Yeah,
it’s all about love and that it’s going to take a lifetime to understand what love means. But I’m really thankful for organizations like yours, Dr. J, where people can turn to when they’re at their most broken or their most painful or their most lonely, they can turn to some resources that that tell them where they can find the hope because I’ve been there and I know what it’s like to
read something that picks you up and points you in the right direction. It can be life-changing. So just remember that you are one of those children we’re talking about and God loves you and has great plans for you. So you just got to figure out what your gifts are and make the most of them.
Ruth Institute (1:03:04)
Well, Dr. Stacey, this has been a very enlightening and enjoyable conversation. I’m very glad that I’ve had the chance to get to know you. And I certainly appreciate the effort that went into writing this book. And I know that many people are going to be blessed by this book. So thank you so much for being my guest on today’s episode of the Dr. J Show.
Stacy Trasancos (1:03:23)
Thank you. Thank you so much.
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