Was Keeping Society “Out of the Bedroom” A Disastrous Idea?

Dr. Scott Hahn

We were discussing religion in the public square, we were reading Richard John new houses, the naked Public Square was the mid-80s, the Moral Majority,
you had the pro-life alliances, Protestants and Catholics were coming together, for the first time, to bear witness the sanctity of life. It was
exciting. It was also kind of controversial. And so, we were discussing the role of religion and politics at the time. And in the middle of this
lecture discussion, dire lecture, he just started looking out the window. And we were struck by that because he didn’t do that before. And he just
quipped, I mean, it was sort of like a throwaway line that just came to him unexpectedly. So, we can debate this all day long. But the fact is,
if Christian couples simply live the grace of the sacrament of matrimony, for one generation, the result would be a transformed culture, dare I
say, a Christian society. Regardless of the politicians who we elect or don’t elect, regardless of the promises that they make and keep or not,
if we just simply kept our promises our vows and fulfilled our covenant, oh, the sacrament would make up what we lack, give us what we need, not
only to be faithful spouses to one another in the presence of our own kids, but our neighborhood as well. Like a pebble in a pond that sends out
ripples, we would send out so much grace.

Jennifer Roback Morse

Hi, everyone. I’m Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse, founder and president of the Ruth Institute. Welcome to this edition of the Dr. J show. And my guest today
is Dr. Scott Hahn, who’s a well-known biblical scholar, Catholic biblical scholar who’s written a really interesting book that I think all of you
are going to be keen on. It’s called “The First Society” And it’s about marriage. And he’s written a lot of things about the biblical and family,
all things put together. And we don’t usually do Bible stuff, we usually do social science stuff. But I think you guys are going to really like
this book. So, Dr. Hahn. Without further ado, welcome to the Dr. J. Show.

Dr. Scott Hahn

It is great to be with you, Dr. J. Or Jenny, if you don’t mind.

Jennifer Roback Morse

That’s totally fine. Scott and I go back a ways. So, listen, let’s just cut right to the chase here. In this book, you describe marriage as a natural
institution. And then you’re going to go beyond that. But tell people what you mean by marriage as a natural institution?

Dr. Scott Hahn

Well, first of all, we have to see that human beings are not only rational animals, as Aristotle described us, we’re also social animals. And so, you
can see in Sacred Scripture, but you can also find, through the application of natural reason to the natural order, what we call natural law. And
so, when you look at the natural law, you recognize what we share in common, not only in a Judeo-Christian sense, but going all the way back to
antiquity. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, and in the Roman culture, you have Cicero and Seneca and others, recognizing that the natural law recognizes
this notion of marriage as a natural institution. And what we mean then is that human nature is something that we all share. And the natural law
is what leads us not only to be perfected and fulfilled as individuals, but also socially and politically. And so, there are certain properties
concerning marriage that are described, as pertaining to marriage as a natural institution or marriage as an institution of the natural law.

Jennifer Roback Morse

So why don’t you just tell people, what are some of those properties that are part of marriage as a natural institution?

Dr. Scott Hahn

Well, the first one is permanence. This is not a contract, there is something covenantal, about marriage, even in non-Christian and non-Jewish
societies. And so, the two become one, and that one is permanent. And so, the idea of indissolubility is inherent in the institution of marriage,
for the sake of the kids, if nothing else, but also for the good of society. It’s also exclusivity. That’s the second property of marriage
as a natural institution, that it is not temporary and it’s also not wide open. So that polygamy or polyandry, these are not options in the
natural law, and once again, for the good of the spouses for the good of the kids and for the good of society, and the third property is–

Jennifer Roback Morse

But hold on, but we do see societies that permit polygamy, societies that permit impermanence. Does that contradict the argument that there’s
something natural about permanence and exclusivity?

Dr. Scott Hahn

Great question, and you already find it in Sacred Scripture, you find that the patriarchs are sometimes polygamous. In Mosaic Law, Deuteronomy
24, there’s permission for divorce and remarriage. But this is generally understood as concessions to human weakness. And in theology,
we would recognize the effects of original sin. And so, when we look at how law is meant to perfect us, we recognize that we’re not perfect.
We’re being perfected. And so, the law has to be adjusted in a concessionary sort of way, like Moses himself made concessions. But in Matthew
19, our Lord Jesus makes the observation that Moses, not God, permitted divorce and remarriage. He didn’t command it, because of the hardness
of their hearts. And so, we have to be realistic. And at the same time, we also have to recognize that inherent in the social structures
is this bedrock, this foundation of marriage, not simply as a contract that you can enter with one person than another temporarily or permanent,
it’s up to you. But the third property after exclusivity and permanence is openness to life. And this is probably the most inaccessible
to moderns because we live in a divorce culture, we live in a contraceptive culture, we live in an abortion culture. So, we have difficult
time seeing that nothing we do with our bodies matters more to the common good than when we are open to life and when we bring children
into this world, and when we commit ourselves, to raising them, not just for our own happiness, and not just for theirs, but again, for
the common good of society. The idea that society has no business in the bedroom, I mean, certainly makes sense at one level, because it
is such a private in the context. But at another level, you can’t go into a bedroom to murder someone and say societies got nothing to
do with what happens the bedroom. And so, when you recognize that human beings are not only rational, that is they apply reason to their
lives and make decisions that will protect them and others for the common good but we’re social animals, then we step back and recognize
why it was that in a natural moral law, even non-religious people could recognize that openness to life, the idea that marriage is designed
for the procreation and education of offspring. This is something that is not added by faith, religion, revelation, this is something intrinsic
to the very structure of what it means to be human. Because none of us come into this world strictly as individuals, not even as persons,
not even as a son or a daughter. And then we discover ourselves to be a brother or a sister. And then we become a husband or a wife, we
become a father or a mother, there is a relational ontology to what it means to be human, that the very structures of human being are inherently
relational. And relationships are not reducible to the merely contractual development system. Many are and still quite fond of the importance
of freedom and free enterprise but there is a difference between the contractual side of life which is transactional, and the covenantal
side of life, which is interpersonal communion.

Dr. Scott Hahn

And I made this point 20 years ago in my book, Love and economics, when I was trying to talk to my economics colleagues, and trying to get
it across to them, that you couldn’t reduce marriage in the family to a series of contracts. And you don’t want to reduce family law to
a special case of contract law or property law, God forbid, but that’s kind of what we’ve been doing in our society in a way. Because people
can’t recognize this covenantal point that you’re raising. So, this is very valuable that you’re saying that. And I also want to stop and
emphasize the word social that you’ve been using. Because, again, in economics, we talk about private versus public. Well, if those are
the only two categories you have, you don’t have a place to put marriage, right? Because it has elements that are private, elements that
are public, but you don’t really want the government involved, really, but it’s social. And so therefore, as you say, there has to be some
kind of involvement. And that was so hard to get that across to people, it’s debating gay marriage and stuff. It’s like, they’ve already
removed the categories that would allow them to see there’s something special.

Dr. Scott Hahn

I think everyone recognizes that Western civilization is in trouble. And we debate as to what the causes and the cures are. Is it too much
freedom? Is it too little? Well, I think there’s just a blurred vision and this goes back decades, this goes back a century or two. I remember
as an undergraduate similar to you, I suspect. In Grove City College, I was an economics major along with—

Jennifer Roback Morse

Yeah.

Dr. Scott Hahn

So Austrian economics, libertarianism, individualism, Mises, Hayek, these were my mentors and it was a great program. But in a certain way,
I could see the deficiency. Because ultimately no matter how hard Murray Rothbard tried to argue marriage is something that is not reducible
to transactional exchange in a contractual market economy. And reading scripture in a certain sense, pushed me over the edge, then distinguishing
between contract, this is yours, and that is mine. Covenant, I am yours, and you are mine. You make a distinction and everything starts
to begin to fall in place.

Jennifer Roback Morse

That’s right. And you know what? I remember when I wrote Love &amp, Economics is that my economist colleagues who had some kind of faith background
understood immediately what I was talking about, and it didn’t matter what their faith background was. But if they didn’t have anything
going on in their faith life, they had no faith life, no prayer life, that lapsed Catholics something like that man, went right by him.
They had no idea what– I think they didn’t want to, I think they didn’t want to understand the–

Dr. Scott Hahn

It’s a problem of intellect but it’s also probably over the will.

Jennifer Roback Morse

That’s right. That’s right. So now that we’ve established marriage as a natural institution, and you’ve already mentioned, the difficulties
of marriage and the concessionary nature of some of the things that we see around it, you say in the book, you have this kind of outrageous
statement, that marriage is impossible. So why should I have you Dr. Hahn, telling people marriage is impossible on our program? What do
you mean when you say that, and where are you going with that?

Dr. Scott Hahn

Well, when we recognize the natural law is what human nature needs to be fulfilled and perfected individually and socially, personally, and
interpersonally. We also have to recognize that we have natural weaknesses. And so, we recognize pride, we recognize the wounds that we
carry from our own upbringing, and that sort of thing. And then we just wake up, we look around, and we recognize that marriage is in a
state of freefall right now in our society. And so, even going back to ancient Israel, and looking at the Old Testament, you begin to recognize
that as an empirical fact, human nature after the fall, no matter how you interpret Genesis three, is radically impaired. And again, in
our faith tradition, we recognize that God the Father, sends his son, not only to heal us, to teach us, but also to die and rise for us.
That’s a radical cure. That suggests a radical flaw, a real deep disease. And so, what I want to propose is that the church, the Catholic
Church, and its teaching shows that marriage is a natural institution. And you can see that through natural reason and the natural law,
but you also recognize the profound natural consequences of sin, not just Original Sin, personal sin, but habitual sins as well. And so,
Jesus comes and acknowledges that Moses permitted divorce and remarriage because of the hardness of your heart. And then he elevates this
by his own grace to what we would call a sacrament. And so, he restores the natural institution, he empowers us through supernatural grace,
to keep the natural law. And so, I would conclude that, marriage, under those circumstances is humanly impossible apart from redeeming
grace, apart from the God’s help. And so, this, I think accords with what we already sense. I’ve been married 41 years, I had no idea how
fulfilling this friendship with Kimberly would be. But likewise, I had no idea how frustrating it would be. I am sure that nobody has frustrated
Kimberlee more than me, because nobody gets as close as I do to frustrate or as deeply. But I also heard her say that nobody’s brought
her happiness as much as I have. And I would say that it’s true for my relationship to her. I mean, she has referred to me to no end, but
she has brought a degree of happiness. But I basically attribute that to the fact that this is not just a contract, It’s a covenant. It’s
not just a covenant, it is a sacrament. And so consistently through 41 years, with six kids and our 20 grandkids, God always makes up for
what we lack and gives us what we need. And this is not just reducible to a supernatural outlook, because in the natural law, we also have
the notion of natural theology. We know that there is a God, we know what his attributes are. And we know that he is not only distant and
transcendent, but present and imminent and willing to help us so that looking at marriage as a natural institution, you see that it is
a covenant. And you also recognize that God is present and active in his creation, even apart from supernatural revelation and divine faith.
And so, the idea of swearing an oath, so help me God is something that we do in public, for officials who are called upon to kind of wield
godlike power. And if you see that the Latin word for the oaths that people swear when they are called upon to perform public service,
the Latin word is sacramentum. So, all I do is to the fact that for marriage to be a covenant and not just the contract, you don’t just
exchange vows, you invoke the name of God, because you recognize especially after the fall, we need God’s help, so help us God.

Jennifer Roback Morse

That’s exactly right. And married couples certainly discover that. If they didn’t know, going into marriage, you discover it fairly quickly
that these things come up, misunderstandings happen, differences of priorities, things happen that nobody expected. And the idea that
you could plan a contract out ahead of time to deal with all that contractually, it’s ridiculous. Even contract, there is no that you
can’t fully specify a complex contract like that, you can’t write down everything that has to be an element of goodwill. And well,
how are you going to keep the goodwill? Where’s that goodwill going to come from? Well, it’s going to get used up real fast, unless
you’ve got some supernatural pumping station, so to speak, filling you up periodically. I don’t know whether you know this or not because
this is not your deal that you track, but the social science completely supports what you’re saying, in the sense that if you look
at the people who study, what are the risk factors for divorce? What are the risk factors for unhappy marriage and different things
like that? And regular religious practice is a protective factor for all of the bad stuff that you can think of. It’s just if you–
just saying, Hello, I’m a Catholic, that’s not good enough, how often do you actually show up? If that’s your variable, it’s evidently
true. There’s corroborating evidence for what you’re saying that you can see in the natural order. So, this is in a way, what you’re
saying, in a sense is that the sacrament is very practical, that your theology is not some pie in the sky thing. This is a very practical
thing that the sacramentum does to help us live out our vows and have happier lives. Tell us a little bit about that.

Dr. Scott Hahn

Let me just press pause, rewind for one second and say what you just talked about a moment ago, in terms of the empirical data for the
social sciences, to vindicate to validate the idea that religious commitment is an inherent force for positive good. Your work at the
Ruth Institute has just provided so many people so much data, to support that sort of thing that if people were simply agnostics, when
it comes to God, but they were interested truly in the common good, they would take that data and recognize the need for all social
structures to support marriage. And our mutual friend, Dr. Patrick Fagan also has so much work over the decades, we’ve been friends
for over 30 years. And we brought him here to the Franciscan University of Steubenville to give lectures and students are stunned by
the amount of empirical data there is. But to your question, you know, the idea of the sacramentality of marriage. Again, it isn’t
just a supernatural additive. It is also something inherent in marriage as an institution in as much as it was a covenant long before
the incarnation of Jesus. And Jesus expressed intention to raise it to the level of a sacrament. So sacramentum is the oath that you
swear to supplement the vows that you exchange. Together, ask God for help, because I might pass a polygraph when I say I do to her,
and she says it to me. But unless we don’t know ourselves enough, we recognize that we’ll still need divine aid at the natural level,
just like witnesses swear an oath before they give testimony because we recognize their weakness in the face of the temptation to lie
on behalf of the defendant if you happen to be my son, for example. And so, the sacrament of marriage or matrimony, is what we as Catholic
Christians believe. And just as an aside, in the Old Testament, if you don’t swear an oath, if you only exchange promises, all you
have is a contract. The only way you can elevate a contract to the level of a covenant is by swearing an oath. And that’s how you renew
the covenant as well. And it’s a curious thing that in Hebrew– you can see it in Genesis 21. The term for swearing a covenant oath
is Shiva, which literally means to seven yourself. So, the first covenant made between two humans, Abraham and Abimelech is that Bar-Shiva,
the well of the seven, the well of the oath. And that’s where the exchange the seven lambs as a sacrificial communion, to avoid aggression
to avert war, and then they become covenant brothers, because covenant creates a kind of sacred kinship bond. If that’s true in the
Old Testament, it isn’t less but even more true in the new, where Jesus infuses the Holy Spirit into the new covenant, but also into
what we believe to be seven sacraments. And so, I say that the sacrament of matrimony doesn’t make it easy. It makes it possible.

Jennifer Roback Morse

That’s the point. Because without that help, without that divine help, humanly, it’s impossible. And we see that all around us with
people who have either fallen away from their faith or who have never had any faith, it just how difficult it is for them. And
they may be very well-intentioned people. They may be good, decent people, but they can’t quite pull it off. And how many times
have you heard? I’m sure, you’ve heard this many, many times. Somebody who has problems in their life, and they leave the church,
and they end up coming back and they’ll tell you that it was their Grandma who said, How many rosaries for them? Or how many Novenas
for them or who just prayed for them? Across the religious spectrum, you hear that invocation of the help of God, by people who
love the person, right. I mean, I had a lady that I interviewed while ago, this is one of our most popular videos, God. This is
a woman who was a black woman, who had been a lesbian, had lived a lesbian lifestyle, had a radical conversion experience, came
back to her family in her church. And her mother, what she says in this video, my mom never gave up on me. And that’s what you
need, that’s was her final message to the whole audience. If you’re dealing with this in your family, never give up on the prayers
that you’re doing. Just never give up on it.

Dr. Scott Hahn

Amen. I share with discretion, some personal things about our own marriage in this book, the first society because both Kimberly and
Scott are rather intense. We’re also deeply committed to our faith, and we were before we met, and we became even more so after
we met. But I wasn’t evangelical pastor for several years, and she was the daughter of a very prestigious evangelical pastor. And
so, when my research and study led me to the conclusion that I shouldn’t become a Catholic, and I felt that call, there was a four-year
span where I wasn’t she wasn’t and I wasn’t sure she ever would be. And that really put our marriage to the test. It also opened
my eyes to the fact that it was a sacrament and a covenant before I recognized theologically it was so. And so, it wasn’t just
a theoretical for me, it became personal, practical, and a matter of prayer. And it was for her as well. And for those four years,
if you had been our neighbors, you would have given our marriage a 50/50 chance maybe. In the summertime, when the windows were
open, we’re both intense. I come from a German family where tempers flare on a frequent basis. But I learned at the end of it all,
about 10 years into our marriage. And as I mentioned, 41 years now, that I’ve never gone wrong trusting you. I heard myself say
that I’ve never gone wrong trusting you. And I’ve never gone right distrusting you. Even if I could prove that you were wrong,
the expression of distrust and disrespect just makes it seem as though we’re really opponents or competitors. When we are coworkers,
we are teammates at the deepest level. And for me, that was the practical and the personal breakthrough, that looking back was
supplied by the sacrament, that it’s not just there as a block or a brick in the wall. It really is something personal. As my friend,
my priest’s confessor says, you’re called to the sacrament of matrimony. But in your case, that sacrament has a name, it’s Kimberly.
Amen. –daughter of God, and she is my beloved bride and the mother of my kids, and the greatest gift I can give them is to love
their mom.

Jennifer Roback Morse

Yes. Oh, so you just brought so many things to my mind from what you said there. But when you were talking about trust, that I’ve never
gone wrong trusting you, I thought you were talking about God at first.

Dr. Scott Hahn

Well, obviously I was too but–

Jennifer Roback Morse

Isn’t that interesting that the kind of love that we’re called to within matrimony is a kind of divine love. And this is another point–
well, Catholics are familiar with, probably everybody’s familiar with it a little bit but the idea that matrimony is an icon of
God’s love for us and Christ’s love for his church. And so, I’ve started saying now a pagan economist, knuckle dragging, materialist
economist here. I’ve been telling people that your marriage has cosmic significance. Your marriage is a reflection of the cosmos.
You didn’t say that in this book. But I’m sure you’ve said in other places. Tell people what I– what am I talking about when I
say that. You know what I’m talking about better than I do there.

Dr. Scott Hahn

Put your finger on the source of that God’s love for us is what brought us into existence out of nothing. He sustains us. I think we
have deep down, the biggest problem is that we can’t really believe that God loves us that much. And we think he’s busy governing
the universe, sustaining galaxies and solar systems. But we forget that God is so immense, the galaxies and solar systems are very
little different from subatomic particles. It’s all small. But none of those things are persons made his image and likeness. None
of them are called to become as sons and daughters. And so, when we profess our faith in God, the Father almighty, the power of
God Almighty is subordinate to his eternal personhood as a father, of a father. And so, for him to fashion us as sons and daughters,
for us to unite in the covenant of marriage in order to have sons and daughters, and not just ours, but ultimately is. I mean,
he is more deeply invested in our wellbeing in marriage and family life than all of the sociologists down through the ages put
together. And it frankly, that’s not saying much. The majority.

Jennifer Roback Morse

No offense, guys. But hey, you have to know your place. And I think that’s part of our faith and a genuine understanding of humility
is to understand your place, he’s God, we’re not. Okay, we’ve got something to offer and but the only reason we have anything to
offer is because he gave it to us. And he has a mission for us to perform. And if we do what we’re supposed to do, then okay, but
he’s God.

Dr. Scott Hahn

I just thought of something. I didn’t put it in this book. But I’ve written an essay in a collection called Catholic for a reason,
scripture and the mystery of marriage and the family. Kimberly also has an essay on that, but the title of my essay is the world
is a wedding. And that was what I was thinking when you were describing how marriage is cosmic and its significance. I begin the
essay describing the fact that the first wedding I ever attended, was my own. I had never been invited or declined the invitation.
I was 21, so was she, my older siblings weren’t even in a serious relationship yet. And so, I am marrying the pastor’s daughter,
he is a marrying us. And here I am standing up looking out at a congregation of about 600 people because he practically invited
everybody. And when she came around the corner in her– I mean, I knew she had a beautiful wedding gown. I just hadn’t seen her
in it. And literally my knees buckled, my oldest brother had to catch me, because I was so stunned by her beauty, as well as scared
by the crowd. And that moment is forever sealed indelibly in my memory and on my heart as well. But I never expected going into
marriage, that within a matter of days, in the honeymoon, within a matter of weeks, our first month of marriage, we were having
friction like we never had in our relationship, in our engagement and that sort of thing. And so, we began to pray more, we began
to work through things, we had to come up with ground rules. But it was learning how to fight fair because you can’t be as intense
as the two of us are and agree on everything. And even if we did, we would probably still find some friction, some sources of friction.
And I also mentioned in the book that another eureka moment for me came when I was a doctoral student, preparing to enter into
the Catholic Church, but I was studying under a Jesuit priest, Father, Donald Keefe, God rest his soul. He taught him a law school,
as well as in the theology department. And he we were discussing religion in the public square, we were reading Richard john new
houses, the naked Public Square was the mid-80s, the Moral Majority, you had the pro-life alliances, Protestants and Catholics
were coming together, for the first time to bear witness the sanctity of life. It was exciting. It was also kind of controversial.
And so, we were discussing the role of religion and politics at the time. And in the middle of this lecture discussion, [sp]Daya
lecture, he just started looking out the window. And we were struck by that because he, he didn’t do that before. He just quipped,
I mean, it was sort of like a throwaway line that just came to him unexpectedly. So, we can debate this all day long. But the fact
is, if Christian couples simply live the grace of the sacrament of matrimony, for one generation, the result would be a transformed
culture. Dare I say a Christian society? Oh, but I digress. I suppose I should get back to the lecture. And I am staring like,
freeze frame. You said what? It seemed like hyperbole, it seemed like overstatement. But the more I reflected upon it, I tuned
out the lecture and the discussion for the next five or 10 minutes, because it struck me like a lightning bolt that he was right
that regardless of the politicians who we elect or don’t elect, regardless of the promises that they make, and keep or not, if
we just simply kept our promises, our vows and fulfilled our covenant, oh, this sacrament would make up what we lack, give us what
we need, not only to be faithful spouses to one another in the presence of our own kids, but our neighborhood as well. Like a pebble
in a pond that sends out ripples, we would send out so much grace. I went home and I told Kimberly that and it was just a moment
for embracing because it was so obviously true. It’s so far from our consciousness in this secularized society.

Jennifer Roback Morse

Yes. And the reverse of it is also true. Every once in a while, when we’re having conflict, I think to myself, and sometimes I’ll say
it, honey, there are a lot of people who are counting us to stay married. If something happened to our marriage, a lot of people
would be harmed. And so that’s the reverse effect of what you’re talking about. And every single divorce has those kind of ripple
effects throughout the extended family in the community and everything else. So, I think that’s profoundly true. And that brings
me to a question I wanted to get to, and I thought we get it at the end but– because it comes at the end of your book. But you
make the statement in your concluding chapter, you say, we are probably not going to witness any spectacular mass conversion to
sanctity in our lifetimes. So, let’s be heroic and accepting short term humiliation only as an apparent defeat without compromise.
And this is where you were talking about just not compromising on the subject of what marriage is. And is it not compromising on
the supernatural? Would you build that out for us? That’s the statement that I have marked up in the book and that made me go,
I’m writing a review of this book. Yeah. unaccustomed as I am to writing about theology, what did you mean by that? Because it
builds right on what you just said from your professor there.

Dr. Scott Hahn

It’s funny that you would ask this question. I saw it on the sheet and I wondered if we would get to it. The book has been out now,
two or three years, and I have done lots of conversations and interviews and that sort of thing, read lots of reviews, you’re the
first person to ask this question. And I’m really–

Jennifer Roback Morse

I mentioned it in my review of your book, didn’t I? Yeah. Okay. All right, carry on? Oh, well, I feel honored–

Dr. Scott Hahn

It goes back almost 40 years in our first or second year of marriage when I was in Virginia. And I was at a convention of conservatives,
and almost all of them were Christians. And I can’t remember, Howard Phillips, I think was the man’s name. He was a convert to
Judaism, who was an outstanding voice for the conservative cause. And he surprised us all. And I had all of these high school kids
from my group, my youth group there. And so, I was excited to hear him give us this super pep talk at the halftime before we took
the field for the second half of the game. And he gave us in the second half of his presentation, or rather dour prediction. He
said, the prospect of our permanently changing American society, so that it really fulfills the natural moral law, so that it becomes
Christian is bleak and be like, Oh, thanks a lot. But he said, if we keep compromising in order to affect change, we’re going to
discover that the kind of change that we affect is not the kind of change that we can live with long term. And so, if the chances
of transforming our culture and making it shine with the truth of God’s word is not that likely, don’t compromise, go down standing
tall. And I remember thinking, wow, unfortunately, he’s probably right. And on the other hand, that is the truth that will make
us really suitable for heaven. Paul tells the Philippians in Philippians three, verse 20, that our citizenship is in heaven. And
we tend to forget that because we forget that we have dual citizenship, and not just American and Israeli but earthly and heavenly,
I’m a child of Fred and Molly Lue Hahn, but I’m a child of God even more and much, much longer. And so, some people say, well,
it’s pie in the sky. You’re so heavenly minded, you’re of no earthly good. What he said to us was If you remain truly centered
on God, and heavenly minded, you should be above all people completely fearless on Earth. Precisely because, you’re not a fool
to give up what you can’t keep in order to gain what you can’t lose, he was quoting Jim Elliot there. And all of us, teacher and
students, we were so galvanized by that, that it just stuck with me that if we don’t compromise, God might bless our natural efforts
with supernatural success that nobody expects. But if we don’t compromise, and we lose anyway, which will probably do, if we made
every compromise that was–

Jennifer Roback Morse

That’s right.

Dr. Scott Hahn

If we don’t compromise, we’re rendered suitable for entering into the Commonwealth of ever. And that’s what you see the martyrs, that’s
what you see the saints are all about. That’s what you see St. Paul saying, Philippians. He’s not just reminding them, that you’re
not just Philippian citizens, you’re citizens of heaven, he’s giving them joy. I mean, Philippians is called the Epistle of joy.
Philippians four, rejoice in the Lord always. And again, I say rejoice. And that’s because Paul wrote that on summer vacation when
he was in the Caribbean. This is one of his prison epistles. Joy, joy, Rejoice, rejoice. It’s proof that this faith that we have
is not only enough to get us out of the world and into heaven for a trillion years, the first day of eternal life, it’s also enough
to empower us to live in the world to face temptation to compromise. And not only to compromise our witness out there in the public
square, but to compromise our fidelity where it matters the most, and that is within the heart. And so, to fight the temptations
that would cause us to say, and this is something else I decided not to put in the book, but our first-year marriage, I’m in seminary,
she’s taking Seminary courses part time, but she’s working full time down in Cambridge, near Boston. And she’s working with a fellow,
I forget his name. But she came to me and she said, I put in a transcript. I thought I loved your job. I thought you loved your
job. She said, I do. But I’m sorry to say this. But here our first year of marriage, I feel this attachment forming to a coworker
and I come home and we’re so tired, that I had to put in a transfer just to guard my heart. And I said, this is strange timing
indeed, because I’m in a lecture hall, sitting next to a woman student who just resonates with certain things that we’re studying,
that I can’t share with you, because you’re not in the class. And so, a couple of my friends asked me, why did you switch seats
to the opposite side of the lecture hall? I could just hear better. And so, we apologize to each other for allowing our hearts
to stray. In our first year of marriage, I had no idea that my heart was so capable of the training, my Lord and my bride. And
so, it’s not something well, that’s what happens the first-year marriage, it happens, the second, the third and the fourth.

Jennifer Roback Morse

That’s right. And you guys guarded it, you guys recognized it and put a stop to it.

Dr. Scott Hahn

And we blame that God for that grace, because we’re too weak other way.

Jennifer Roback Morse

Exactly, Yeah, that’s really interesting. Thank you for sharing that. I think that will be a source of encouragement for a lot
of people. But I do want to go back to this point about the compromise and about the bringing into it the full truth of the
gospel and the full truth of God. Because I started my career, really always trying to stick with natural arguments with social
science arguments, and that kind of stuff. And we do that. And we of course, we still do that. That’s what we’re known for.
That’s what we specialize in. But at some point, I realized we weren’t going to make it that wasn’t going to be good enough.
So, I had to be prepared to talk about God, even if I don’t do it all day long, which I’m never going to sell myself as a theologian,
I’m going to point people to others who have more training in that, but if you’re freaked out and won’t ever say it, that’s
going to show, that’s going to come through and it’s going to diminish your ability to speak the whole truth. We have many
opportunities for compromise in our line of work over here at the Ruth Institute. And I think your insight here has served
us well in the sense that if you compromise, you can never get that ground back. And you’re looking at it from a supernatural
perspective, which of course is important, but just from the natural perspective, our opponents do not really believe in compromise,
they believe in stepping stones. And so, what you see is a compromise that will keep the peace, they see as a stepping stone
towards some further objective. And so, this lecture you heard was what in the 1980s, look at to how far this has gone without
being seriously confronted, and the mistakes that people can make and ruin their lives are deeper and more profound today than
the kind of mistakes I made in the 70s.

Dr. Scott Hahn

80s was the Reagan era. And so that felt like Shangri La, it’s sort of Camelot for conservatives. And that at the same time, there
were voices that were warning that looking back on the 70s, Jimmy Carter’s White House Conference on the families, they couldn’t
even come up with the minimal definition of what a family was. And that was a telltale sign. And so, the prophets of doom and
gloom, sometimes they wear me out. And they were pointing to something that is the logical consequence of compromise after
compromise. That’s when you realize there is a trajectory, these are stepping stones, this is nothing, there’s nothing permanent
about the arrangement that our opponents are willing to make at this point.

Jennifer Roback Morse

That’s exactly right. So, the way you put it was, if we’re going to go down, well, we might as well go down with integrity, we
might as well go down fighting. And another way to look at it is that I honestly, I think we cannot honorably avoid persecution
at this point. I mean, I just think people are being harmed for their beliefs and so on. And I think it’s on its way, but the
point is how we conduct ourselves in the face of that, that’s what’s important. Are we going to say, Stop picking on me? Picking
on me is not the point. The fact that you’re being mean to me, I don’t like it but that’s not the point. The point is, what
you’re saying is incorrect and what you’re saying is going to harm people. And so, I’m going to put my body between you and
the public. I’m going to say, this is incorrect, and explain it to the best of my ability. But from my perspective, even though
I’m not talking about God all the time, without the backstop of divine grace, I couldn’t do what I’m doing, no way.

Dr. Scott Hahn

I think about what our Lord did, his parting words to the disciples were go and make disciples of all nations. And why? Because
all authority in heaven and earth has been given to me, and I’m with you always to the end of the age. But how do we go about
it? I mean, as we know, our Lord went to Rome. And he chose the 12 most popular, well-educated senators. He went to the backwaters
of Palestine and found Galilee and fishermen in tax collectors. With all due respect, what were you thinking? Well, God does
more with less. And it was the heroic witness the fact that they weren’t willing to compromise that leads historians to say
that the blood of the martyrs was indeed the seat of the church. But to make disciples of all nations in the first century
meant going into the Roman Empire, talk about a culture of debt, what were their chances? Nil, there are no chances that they’re
going to succeed. But we’re not just planning to false crop, so that we have food for the winter, we’re planning for us that
our grandkids might use to build their houses, their furniture, and put logs in the fire. And so, we’ve got to think long term
and not simply in terms of election cycles. We think in an eternal perspective. And so, if Christ Himself could send out tax
collectors and fishermen, and against all odds bring about the force of grace to create what we call Christendom, which was
hardly utopian –was a civilization of love. It was a Christian culture. If he could do it back then there’s no reason for
us to conclude that he can’t do it again or that he doesn’t want to, but the bottom line is, he’s calling us to faithfulness,
not to success. And so, Alfred, Lord Tennyson’s honors is not to reason why ours is but to do or die. And so faithful witness,
heroic, and to recognize that God didn’t bring about that transformation, just because the apostles were so willing to compromise
with their Roman authorities or their persecutors.

Jennifer Roback Morse

Do you know you’re a good person to ask this question to, because I know you’ve tracked some of the different sociologists over
the years and responded to them and so on? But one sense that I have is that we are so de-Christianized are so desacralized,
I guess it was Weber who said that the societies become desacralized or disenchanted I think that was a word– it’s becoming
more and more real to me that most people who profess the Christian or Catholic faith don’t actually believe, they give lip
service to it. But when it really comes to really putting your put your money where your mouth is kind of thing, I think we’re
afraid to really go whole hog and say, Yeah, I really believe you can do this Lord, I believe this.

Dr. Scott Hahn

Well, I would agree wholeheartedly. The sequel to this book, “The First Society” is a book that came out a few months ago right
after the election, entitled in is right and just Why the future of civilization depends on true religion. And I am convinced
that it does. And I am convinced that even if I can’t convince anybody else, it still does, you know. And so, it isn’t a really
bold claim, you just have to go back two centuries or three, to recognize that this was a kind of commonplace. But what we
have as Catholics is called the New Evangelization. That’s to re-evangelize the de-Christianize to rekindle faith. And it’s
a response to what nobody is called. But you could describe as the new DE-evangelization, because to secularize and de-Christianized
people has been a wholesale program that goes back a century. Emphatically, every inhabited continent where Christianity as
flourished. And so, I see this as an exciting time. God worked before with a pre-Christian pagan society, I think we would
give him even greater thanks and glory, if he could bring about a transformation to a post-Christian, idolatrous and secularized
society. But again, we leave the actuarial statistics to God. Whether it’s likely or unlikely, that’s really up to us to determine
at the end of the day, we just have to be faithful in a row and bearing witness. And again, not just with our words, but our
lives and especially our home life.

Jennifer Roback Morse

Yes, yes. And a lot of our religious practice really does in a sense, center around the home, which we also kind of forget that
there’s public worship. And then there’s the way in which we pass on the faith, how much of that takes place in the home? And
the way that we have degraded the home in modern times that women have been told that you’re idiots if you stay home. Well,
actually, if you’re stay home, you’re preserving culture, you’re preserving tradition, you’re passing on knowledge and information.
And I’m sure you guys, if you homeschool, you are passing on all kinds of things from one family to the next and keeping it
alive. And that’s why people are doing it.

Dr. Scott Hahn

That’s right. Yeah, and we homeschool for 26 years, all six kids. And the firstborn has a PhD from Notre Dame. All of these kinds
of exciting things. He’s a professor at the seminary in Maryland. But we’re proud of what our Lord has done with us in our
sincerity or strength, especially our weakness in our brokenness. There are seven sacraments in our tradition, and one of them
is reconciliation, confession, penance, whatever you call it, the more you need it, the less you want it. But since I entered
the church 35 years ago, I think just about every week, I’ve gone to confession and Kimberly and the kids have never once suggested
that I go too frequently. When I come back, I am humbler and kinder and gentler but at the end of the day, I would also say
this, I’m not much, but I’m all I think about. If I get accolades, I say to them, if I didn’t know me, I might be impressed.
I know our Lord. I know the God who created the universe. I am so overwhelmingly impressed with what he can do with dirt by
making Adam and by getting me out of the juvenile court system in Pittsburgh, and taking the delinquents. As far as he has.
I feel like he’s playing a prank on the devil, but it’s too much fun.

Jennifer Roback Morse

And if you if you believe it, and we profess that we believe that God can write straight with crooked lines. We profess to believe
that right? Yeah, me too. And a lot of people who hang around the Ruth Institute have some kind of passed, right? I mean, that’s
just that’s the way it is. So, I look at it this way. If we would let God right straight with crooked lines, we would be the
holiest place the world has ever seen, man because we got so many crooked lines for him to work with.

Dr. Scott Hahn

Amen.

Jennifer Roback Morse

So, Dr. Hahn, do you have any closing words or anything that you’re involved in that you’d like to share with our viewers who–?
Some of our Catholic viewers are probably familiar with you and your apostolic and so on, but the non-Catholic viewers may
be interested in some of the other books you’ve written and other projects that you’re involved in. So, take a moment to tell
people about some of your other work.

Dr. Scott Hahn

20 years ago, Kimberlin and I founded the St. Paul center for Biblical theology to really promote biblical literacy for Catholic
lay people, but also for Christians at large, and then also to promote a kind of biblical fluency for our clergy and for our
teachers, and to connect not only the Bible to everyday life, but to show how the New Testaments concealed in the old and the
oldest revealed and fulfilled in the new, but also how our worship where the word is proclaimed, releases more power for more
healing than anything you’ll do in the political realm, the social spheres and that sort of thing. Not that it exempts us from
those things, those are important. Kimberly is a city councilman at large and she won in a totally democratic town in a landslide
as a Republican, she is so involved. But the St. Paul Center has a website where lots of resources are available for beginners,
intermediate and advanced, just stpaulcenter.com, St. Paul center. And I think, in particular, throughout Lent, we have a brand-new
series called Parousia: The Bible and the Mass, where we tie together the Passover and the Eucharist, the old and the new,
the lamb and our Lord and lots of other things too. And it’s free live streaming throughout all of–

Jennifer Roback Morse

Oh, very nice.

Dr. Scott Hahn

And it’s just brand new, just came out a few days ago.

Jennifer Roback Morse

Very nice. And because of your background, as a Protestant pastor, you have done a lot of work and kind of bridging some of the
gap between the faith traditions. And so, I would say to any Ruth Institute viewer, if you’re interested in the Bible, Dr.
Hahn is a good place to go to a good resource to go to because he knows the questions that non-Catholics have. And it kind
of the gaps and he addresses a lot of those and I think you would find it very enlightening and helpful. So, what else do you
have cooking, Dr. Han? Do you have any other projects that are in the works?

Dr. Scott Hahn

Working on two or three projects, one that we’re hoping to bring to completion here at the center is called The Ignatius Catholic
Study Bible that I’ve been working on.

Jennifer Roback Morse

Oh, I know that. This is coming out in pieces, right?

Dr. Scott Hahn

That’s right. It’s coming out in pieces. We put together the entire New Testament back in 2010. So, we just finished the book of
Zechariah. And so, the Old Testament is now complete. And so, we’re hoping that within the next year or so, the Ignatius Catholic
Study Bible will be complete and available for millions and millions of Catholics. And I think non-Catholic Christians are
going to also find it very useful because I use a lot of evangelical and Protestant study Bibles, and I find them quite helpful.
And the fact is, this represents so much common ground, we have important differences and disagreements with non-Catholics.
But we have so much more in common 85, 90, 95% of our faith, we share and so standing together on common ground, we can address
our differences respectfully. But we can also celebrate just how much more we agree than we tend to recognize from time to
time.

Jennifer Roback Morse

Yes. And you know what? That’s one of the great joys of the pro family movement, as far as I’m concerned, going all the way back
to 2008. And proposition eight in California that I was so deeply involved in. It’s a great interfaith movement. And I have
felt all the time constantly, that our Lord is using these crises to wipe out some of those old differences, because we can
easily see that we have more in common with our brothers and sisters of other communions. If they’re orthodox, if they’re biblically
literate and so on, we are we have much more in common with the faithful of other denominations, and we do with some of the
liberal members of our own tradition, faith traditions. It’s a very common experience that we have. And so, it’s very beautiful
that you’re doing this work. And I really appreciate your time very much indeed. And I appreciate your work very much indeed.
Thank you so much, Dr. Scott Hahn, for being my guest today on the Dr. J show.

Dr. Scott Hahn

You are welcome, Jenny. Dr. J. I want to also thank you for the amazing work that has been done through the Ruth Institute and
reaching so many people. Keep up the great work and God bless you.

Jennifer Roback Morse

You too, brother. Fist bump. Thanks very much.