What women aren’t told about abortion could fill libraries. The MO is the same for abortion as it is for transgender ideology – promise a panacea, lie about the effects, and gaslight people who struggle with the negative outcomes. Abortion providers have just been at it longer. Dr. Priscilla Coleman, a renowned professor of human development and family studies, we delve deeper into her extensive research on the psychological effects of abortion on women. She discusses the methodologies behind her studies, addresses common criticisms, and shares insights from her meta-analyses that have been pivotal in shaping the discourse around abortion and mental health. It also deals with the societal and policy implications of her findings, offering viewers a comprehensive understanding of the complexities involved. Whether you’re a student, researcher, policymaker, or someone interested in the nuanced aspects of this topic, this interview provides valuable perspectives grounded in empirical research.
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Dr. Priscilla Coleman is a developmental psychologist and retired Professor of Human Development and Family Studies (HDFS) at Bowling Green State University (BGSU). She is now the Science Director for The International Institute for Reproductive Loss (IIRL) (https://www.iirl.net/). The mission of IIRL is to provide, develop, and maintain evidence-based resources on the personal and relational impact of reproductive loss for lay and professional audiences. Dr. Coleman has published over 60 peer-reviewed journal articles, with most on the psychology of abortion (decision-making and mental health outcomes). She has shared her research and analysis of peer-reviewed studies in numerous countries (Australia, Canada, Chili, Ecuador, England, Germany, Ireland, Northern Ireland, Poland, Portugal, and Scotland) to wide-ranging audiences, most notably in Parliament Houses as medical and government personnel evaluated current and future laws regulating abortion.
Timeline of events for Dr. Priscilla Coleman
December 10, 2024.
2008: APA Task Force Report on Abortion.
2008-2010, recruitment for Turnaway Study.
2011: Coleman publishes article in British Journal of Psychiatry.
June 2, 2020: A book by one of the principal investigators, Diana Greene Foster, is published, The Turnaway Study: Ten years, a Thousand Women, and the Consequences of Having—or Being Denied—an Abortion.
June 17, 2022: Coleman publishes Critique of the “Turnaway Study.” In Frontiers in Psychology.
June 24, 2022, Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization.
September 2022: calls for retraction of BJP article
October 5, 2022, Frontiers publishes “Expression of Concern” regarding the article.
October 13, 2022. Coleman retains legal representation.
December 22, 2022. Coleman receives notice that Frontiers plan to retract the article.
December 23, 2022. Dr. Coleman’s attorneys sent a letter to the Frontiers in Psychology Editorial staff.
December 26, 2022 Dr. Coleman’s Frontiers article was retracted.
December 29, 2022 Dr. Coleman’s attorneys sent a letter of objection to the Frontiers in Psychology
May 2023: Cambridge Press, publisher of the British Journal of Psychiatry, ruled in Coleman’s favor and declined to retract.
Transcript (Please note the transcript is auto-generated and contains errors)
Interview Transcript: Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse with Dr. Priscilla Coleman
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:00:00:05 – 00:00:23:18
In this episode, you’ll notice that certain words about ending a pregnancy are edited out in order to get this on YouTube without running afoul of their community guidelines. But if you want the full, uncensored version of this impactful interview, you can view it in its entirety on our Rumble channel. We’ve got the link in the notes. I am so angry about my next guest.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:00:23:21 – 00:00:49:24
Not at her, mind you. Doctor Priscilla Coleman has done nothing wrong. In fact, she’s a national treasure. I’m angry at what has been done to her. Hi, everyone. I’m Doctor Jennifer Roback Moors, founder and president of the Ruth Institute, an international interfaith coalition to defend the family and build a civilization of love. At the Ruth Institute. We believe that babies are a blessing.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:00:49:27 – 00:01:13:24
We also believe that the deliberate taking of an innocent human life is always wrong. And I think in our heart of hearts, all of us know this is wrong. That’s why over here at the Ruth Institute, we’re not surprised to learn that many women have profoundly conflicted feelings about having a home with a significant subset, experiencing deep and long lasting regret.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:01:13:27 – 00:01:43:11
As you may imagine, proponents of on demand are, shall we say, skeptical about this idea. My guest today, Doctor Priscilla Coleman, has been deeply involved in the social science surrounding this controversy. Doctor Coleman is a developmental psychologist. She’s now retired from the Department of Human Development and Family Studies at Bowling Green State University in Ohio. Doctor Coleman has published over 60 articles in peer reviewed journals.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:01:43:13 – 00:02:09:04
She often serves as an expert witness in U.S. civil cases about it, and her studies have been used to support legislation in many U.S. states and in several countries around the world. Naturally, the forces have attempted to discredit her and her work. Today’s episode of The Doctor J. Show is one of our continuing series of interviews with participants in important controversies.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:02:09:07 – 00:02:43:14
We’re here to give Doctor Coleman a chance to speak for herself and to set the record straight. I know you’re going to be fascinated by this conversation, and some of you are going to be just as angry as I am about what she’s had to put up with. You’re going to want to share this interview with your pro-life friends.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:02:43:16 – 00:02:47:04
Doctor Priscilla Coleman, welcome to the doctor J. Show.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:02:47:06 – 00:02:50:04
Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here, Jennifer.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:02:50:07 – 00:03:01:16
Thanks, thanks. Well, so let’s let’s start with just a little bit of background about you. How did you get interested in studying the psychological impact of on women?
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:03:01:19 – 00:03:27:29
Well, I think a honestly dated back to about age 12 when row became the wall of the land. I was a curious kid and probably took in too much information, but it didn’t sit well with me at that time. Hearing that women were so desperate for whatever reasons that they would end their pregnancies and and that was from, you know, a young adolescent, barely an adolescence perspective.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:03:28:05 – 00:03:59:26
But I think the seed was sowed at that point. And then later on in college, I had a pretty significant experience with a roommate. I went to Kenyon College in Ohio a year early. I was ready to move on from my Connecticut town. Always seeking adventure, I suppose. And so I started college early. I was 17 years old, and my roommate had over the Christmas break and she returned.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:04:00:04 – 00:04:32:07
We didn’t know. None of her friends knew, but her behavior became very strange and confusing to us. Now, I know in retrospect, she experienced a full blown psychotic episode. She had auditory and visual hallucinations and all of my study of the world literature. Now, for 30 years, I’ve only encountered one other example of a full blown psychotic episode occurring so soon after, so that also, you know, had been in my mind.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:04:32:10 – 00:05:01:06
Then 12 years later, when I went back to school for my masters and children, by that time I was very interested in the literature on the topic. And I saw that there was so little that seemed to indicate women could possibly have troubles. After. So I, I did not. I studied that topic for my master’s thesis, but my advisor, in the master’s program at James Madison, hired me.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:05:01:08 – 00:05:21:29
I was hired as an instructor, and part of my job was to do research with her. And so that was the topic that I wanted to study. And she was had more of a pro-choice orientation. And so it made for some pretty neutral research, I believe. And I, I was very motivated after publishing a couple studies, went on to a doctorate.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:05:22:01 – 00:05:49:09
My Ph.D. work was in parenting, self-efficacy and early social and emotional development. But whenever I got a chance, I was analyzing data related to this topic. And so it’s been a long journey. And, it’s been fruitful in a lot of ways. It’s been a struggle in many ways. My PhD advisor, warned me that I was headed down the wrong track.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:05:49:10 – 00:06:04:27
She would have preferred I remained with my, you know, dissertation, topic and my research in the doctoral program on, parenting and attachment. But I was very determined to stick to this topic.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:06:04:29 – 00:06:17:09
And if I may ask, just to go back to your roommate, your first college roommate, who had the. And you had all these symptoms. Do you remember roughly what year that would have been? Just to put that in perspective for people.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:06:17:11 – 00:06:20:16
Let’s see, I think it was in 1978.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:06:20:18 – 00:06:39:17
Okay. So pretty early after the Rowe era had started. Yeah. Okay. That’s that. That’s just an interesting bit of perspective there. So. Oh, as as I look at your career and the things that you’ve worked on and the things that you’re known for and so on, I think we have several different threads that we want to cover here.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:06:39:19 – 00:07:00:23
And so let me just read them off and then we’ll get started, you know, but this will give our audience an idea of, you know, I’ve just I’ve just where this conversation is headed because it’s a very significant conversation in my opinion. The first the way I see it, it starts with this. It starts with your paper in 2011 that was published in the British Journal of Psychiatry.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:07:00:25 – 00:07:25:19
That was a meta study of all the papers that were available at that time on the relationship between and psychological functioning. That’s the first big item that that we, you and I are going to cover. Secondly, in 11 years later, 2022, you published a paper in the Frontiers of Psychology, which critiqued the so called turn away study.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:07:25:21 – 00:07:48:00
Okay. So we’ll we’ll want to talk about that your that study and your critique of it. And then shortly after that this is the third kind we have to cover. There were demands that your papers be retracted. The first was a demand that your 2011 paper be retracted 11 years after the fact, and then the demand that the Frontiers in Psychology paper also be retracted.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:07:48:03 – 00:07:52:02
Okay. So that is that I’m getting the headline correctly here.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:07:52:04 – 00:07:53:04
Oh, yes.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:07:53:07 – 00:08:12:27
Okay. And so we want to cover all of those things. But then we also want to touch on, your work as an expert witness, that you’ve been involved in expert was expert witnessing in court cases and also in state legislatures and things like that. So all of those things, Ruthie’s, all of this is part of the story.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:08:12:28 – 00:08:36:16
It’s all part of the mix. And probably there are causal relations among all these that, that, that, that, that, that, that will be exploring. And then just to put it in the mix here, the the Dobbs case came out in June of 2022. So just before your frontiers paper appeared, there was the Dobbs case that overturned Roe v Wade.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:08:36:18 – 00:08:45:11
And I. So much change in our culture. Let’s be neutral about it. Just a change. Okay. So do I have the basic timeline? Correct?
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:08:45:13 – 00:08:46:28
Yeah.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:08:47:00 – 00:09:07:26
Okay. Very good, very good. So let’s start with that 2011 paper, in the British Journal of Psychiatry. What is this paper about? What were your major findings? How did people react to it? You know, just give us the basics of that paper. And by the way, I read that paper when it came out. I’ll just tell you thank you for that.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:09:07:27 – 00:09:12:00
And David Ferguson, Mr. Ferguson’s paper. Is it David.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:09:12:03 – 00:09:15:01
Ferguson? You New Zealand.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:09:15:04 – 00:09:22:26
Right. I have his papers in my filing cabinet also. So, anyway, what was this 2011 study?
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:09:22:28 – 00:10:00:01
Okay, well, the impetus for doing this study was the American Psychological Association came out with a narrative review of and mental health in 2008. And so I, I have spent a great deal of time critiquing that, that review. And it was so utterly biased that I thought what’s needed here is not another narrative review, but a quantitative review of the literature that would show that the APA results weren’t and they weren’t accurate in terms of the potential for suffering among women.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:10:00:03 – 00:10:38:01
So I decided a meta analysis would make the most sense. A meta analysis of different from a narrative review or traditional review because it’s quantitatively based. And so it actually covered articles from 1995 to 2010. And I had selection criteria. So I wasn’t going to just throw any old article into this review. I wanted to find the better studies and then look at a composite, an analysis, of of the effect of,
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:10:38:03 – 00:11:07:11
And so I essentially, chose study. I had the criteria stated clearly in the paper. Any studies included had to be, have at least a hundred participants. There had to be a comparison group, and there had to be controls for third variables, so had to be in English. And so it ended up 22 studies were included. And in that analysis, which was nearly 900,000 women altogether.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:11:07:16 – 00:11:43:05
So this incorporates a massive amount of data was still remains larger than any study available, in the literature on this topic. And so, the bottom line result, after taking into consideration the 22 studies and they’re weighted, they’re not all treated equally. It depends on the size of the study and so forth. So, and then the bottom line result was women who have been compared to women who don’t have an 81% increased risk of experiencing mental health problems.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:11:43:07 – 00:12:10:16
And the outcomes within that study were anxiety, depression, suicidal behaviors and substance abuse. And at that time, those were the most robust outcomes that we were seeing in the literature. So, so it it when it was published, it was the first journal that I submitted to. And it was the journal that is, the it’s the British Journal psychiatry that’s affiliated with the Royal College of Psychiatrists.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:12:10:16 – 00:12:37:23
So it’s a very prestigious journal. I was thrilled that it was accepted, so readily, after it was published, there was a lot of public debate, a lot of the affirming, comments and discussions that were negative us many were not so and so the, the editor at that time, Peter Tyrer, was wonderful. He said, let’s let some of these letters accumulate.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:12:37:23 – 00:13:00:29
And then you why don’t you write a response? I did that was published in November of 2011. And then after that it was relatively quiet. I mean, I was invited to speak literally all over the world because of the import of that of that study. I was in Australia three times South America, I mean, Europe a lot. And I was really his choice.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:13:00:29 – 00:13:28:17
You know, I love to travel, but I also, was so encouraged that I could share that information, in other cultures and that it was translated for, a big talk that I did in 2012 at the University of Chile. And so we have it translated into Spanish. At that time, the country was looking at, bringing into a culture that had not experienced.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:13:28:20 – 00:13:56:27
And my job was to essentially, inform a senator who was the swing vote. I didn’t sleep too well that night before that, but it went well. And he voted in, in favor of not legalizing abortion. So, anyway, I mean, it have a lot of impact. It was relatively quiet, and that all of this, this movement for retraction.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:13:56:29 – 00:13:59:27
And that was ten years later, 11 years later, that that started.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:13:59:28 – 00:14:01:27
Yeah. Quite a while. Yeah. Okay.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:14:02:01 – 00:14:17:19
So let’s so let’s back up then. Okay. There were criticisms, there were critiques, there wasn’t there was a discussion presumably. What were some of the criticisms that people leveled at your study? What were their concerns?
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:14:17:22 – 00:14:42:29
What? Well, some of you are technical. That would, and I’d recommend that listeners look at my rebuttal, but some of them were pretty basic. Like they criticized the fact that I believe ten out of the 22 studies were my own studies. And so I can see why that someone might feel that’s problematic. But I chose those studies based on the criteria set forth.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:14:43:01 – 00:15:11:21
And so many of my studies that didn’t meet those criteria were not included. So there was that, there were there were issues about, it’s a little hard to break it down without getting technical, but, I used the random effects, method of meta analysis, which allowed you to have studies that were not necessarily all conducted similarly.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:15:11:21 – 00:15:43:07
It allows for heterogeneity. And so there was criticism that I was throwing in studies that were, were not or too different to be in that analysis, but there was a procedure for controlling for that. So I just went through all of the criticism and, you know, politely responded and, it satisfied the end or wasn’t concerned. But, yeah, you know, I think it it kind of squashed that debate over it.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:15:43:10 – 00:16:10:15
So, so just to be clear, because my, my, my, my PhD is in economics and I’ve never done a meta study, you know, and so, you know, I’m not that familiar with it. And I suppose most of our listeners have not done meta studies and don’t know it. But if I’m understanding you correctly, there is an acceptable a standard procedure for how you basically make the different studies fit together so that you’re, you know, they’re all going to be different.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:16:10:15 – 00:16:35:21
If they were all the same, it would be the same study multiple times. That’s not the point. The point is to take to somehow accurately compile a variety of information, and give greater weight to the ones that have more observations or meet some other type of criteria. So did people fuss at you over the technical material? Were there people who said you didn’t do it correctly?
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:16:35:23 – 00:17:05:18
I saw that later. When at the point of retraction, there was a few different criticisms that were level, but I, I followed a handbook, a huge handbook on the conduction of a meta analysis. And I, when, when the call for retraction came and I wrote a 40 page rebuttal to the editor I cited to that handbook, and I explained how I followed the procedure to the tee.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:17:05:21 – 00:17:28:13
It was very hard to say. So I was very careful about what I did. I wasn’t gonna, you know, risk doing it incorrectly. And so I followed this, you know, and I but there are since that time, there have been, you know, some new guidelines about how to most optimally conduct a meta analysis so that it’s theoretical there.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:17:28:15 – 00:17:52:16
But, you know, in the end, when when the decision was made by Cambridge Press, after eight months of deliberation, that came down on my side and one of the things they said was, this has been discussed publicly, after and and so they, you know, they didn’t find that I had done anything in it or they would have retracted.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:17:52:19 – 00:18:11:18
So so two points right here. One, is that what you just said and what Cambridge said to you? That’s the way science is supposed to proceed, isn’t it? I mean, let’s let’s spell that for people who may not be familiar or who may have forgotten what’s supposed to happen in a scientific controversy. What are we supposed to do?
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:18:11:21 – 00:18:21:21
Pursue it puts out her thing. You don’t like it. You come back with your responses and you go back and forth a few times. And that all happens in public, in a public forum. Right?
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:18:21:23 – 00:18:50:29
Right. And ideally, those discussions move to stronger research in the future. Ideas are generated. It’s not so contentious. And but there are times when a researcher may have, done something in error and naively or they may have maliciously, manipulated data. We’ve all heard of studies where that has happened. And so the editors job is to sort of field any criticism that comes behind closed doors.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:18:50:29 – 00:19:28:00
If there’s a letter, identifying problematic methodology or evidence that data has been manipulated, then in that type of situation, the retraction is, is what needs to happen. But that’s the end. There’s call. And typically an editor doesn’t make that decision on his or her own, but it uses a committee of people to inform. And, it’s just on a topic like this that the bias and that and the almost like the perversion of science is, is ridiculous.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:19:28:02 – 00:19:45:13
So here’s another scientific standard that one might apply to a situation like that, like this. And that is, let me ask you, did anybody ever take the same 22 studies and reanalyzed them and come out with a different result than the one you came up with?
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:19:45:15 – 00:20:12:22
No. Actually, Doctor Ferguson reanalyzed and came out with the same. And he is single. He is now deceased, but he, was the author of probably 500 journal articles. Very reputable guy. He thought highly of my work and served as an external reviewer for me for, tenure and promotion to full professor at Bgsu. So we had very good dialog.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:20:12:23 – 00:20:30:25
We came at this issue from different perspectives personally, but we both shared the desire to do quality science and share that with the public. And I, I so appreciate Doctor Ferguson. He unfortunately passed away, I believe, in 2000, 2018.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:20:30:27 – 00:20:36:04
And he was pro-choice, if I’m not mistaken. He was not outspokenly pro-choice.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:20:36:07 – 00:21:02:15
He was not a believer. He described himself as a rational atheist. And he said the data. Yeah, that actually had a 25 year, longitudinal data set from New Zealand. Excellent data. And he looked at similar variables to the studies that I’ve been involved in, looked at depression and anxiety and substance abuse, suicidal ideation and his effects were stronger than our effects.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:21:02:15 – 00:21:24:19
And he said and he said publicly, this is ridiculous. This is a health concern. We need to be putting more energy. And another point he made to the news was he never had to submit a paper for publication. Four times in his life. It kept getting rejected because of the nature of the results. And so he was, and that had never happened to him.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:21:24:26 – 00:21:44:21
He studied his primary area of research, I believe, was in, child abuse and drug abuse. And so this was just kind of an aside. He had data that we related to. He was curious. And so but he was very taken aback by this.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:21:44:23 – 00:22:13:02
Yes. And he was it took on a life of his own, of its own once I started looking into it. So now here’s another kind of question. So this is very important evidence for the public to be aware of. Right. Another important kind of question is has anyone since 2011, in addition to you and David Ferguson, has anyone taken, more recent studies, done a similar meta analysis with what you had, plus more recent studies?
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:22:13:05 – 00:22:18:16
Is there any body of work comparable to what you’ve done that has come to different results?
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:22:18:18 – 00:22:43:20
Not that I’m aware of, but, my I have one of my major, my major goals is to there’s been so much more published since 2010. And so as the science director for the International Institute for Reproductive Loss, that’s high on my list of hygiene products to reduce the meta analysis and incorporate massive studies from around the world, I related to that.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:22:43:20 – 00:23:17:22
I’ve also developed a nine point rubric to evaluate every study published and accept using accepted scientific qualities of that’s analogies that indicate reliable evidence. And so, my plan is to do an analysis that incorporates many more years, and then also to apply the rubric to studies to come up with a quality score for every study, not just strong studies, every study.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:23:17:26 – 00:23:45:10
So then we can finally say, you know, the studies that show I’m not positive it will come out this way. I feel very confident it will. But when you look at the quality studies, they score higher in terms of his indicators of methodological strength. And so so those are two of our projects. But yeah, I hope I live long enough to get them done because to do.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:23:45:12 – 00:24:11:20
That now, you mentioned that when the retraction controversy came up, that in the the journal, the British Journal of Psychiatry had a panel of, of people that advised them on this. It’s my understanding that some of the people on that panel resigned in protest when the Royal College of Psychiatrists decided to, to take no action on your paper, but leave it that.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:24:11:23 – 00:24:26:06
What would that so tell me. Tell me if if people if people Google your name and this controversy, they’re going to find stories that talk about that. So I want to hear what you have to say about why who those people were that resigned and why.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:24:26:08 – 00:25:02:14
Okay. Well, I don’t have a lot of detail over the individuals involved, but it wasn’t actually the Royal College. I was dealing with. The head of Cambridge Press, I see, because this art, this journal was part of Cambridge since so that they those and I don’t believe the original editor was actively involved. I’m not sure. I did reply to this, indication that they were considering a retraction with my rebuttal with the assistance of a high powered attorney from Cleveland.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:25:02:16 – 00:25:37:05
And so we copied the higher ups at Cambridge to make sure that this, this wouldn’t just be the political agenda of, of an editor. And so I think I believe that having a lawyer sort of working with me helped to ensure a fair process. But, my this story was just from the news. I don’t have direct and for inside information about those resignations, but I did see in the news that several several editors with the British Journal of Psychiatry resigned in protest.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:25:37:05 – 00:25:39:11
They didn’t agree with the decision.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:25:39:14 – 00:26:03:19
Okay, okay. Fair enough, fair enough. I just wanted to give you a chance to clarify whatever, whatever might come across. Okay. So let’s turn now to your paper in 2022, in Frontiers in Psychiatry at Frontiers of Psychology, which critiqued the turn away study. Now, in order to do that, I need you to tell people about the turn away study.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:26:03:21 – 00:26:24:20
I have no doubt that a lot of our pro-life friends are very familiar with the turn away study, because they have it thrown in their face periodically. Particularly, I suspect, I suppose, our friends who work in the pregnancy care center movement, the people who are trying to offer alternatives to, I’m sure that they have been have heard all about the the turn away study.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:26:24:27 – 00:26:34:14
So why don’t you first tell people what the turn away study is was why it’s significant. And then we’ll take some time for you to explain your critique of it.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:26:34:17 – 00:26:37:08
So it’s so much okay. And like.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:26:37:16 – 00:26:38:15
Priscilla.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:26:38:17 – 00:27:09:24
Not okay. Well, the turn away study was a major effort by researchers affiliated with the University of California, San Francisco, and it was funded by Warren Buffett. $88 at minimum. Okay, I know of $88 million was put into this effort to supposedly design this ideal study. So once and for all showed definitively that, doesn’t it’s not associated with risk for women.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:27:09:24 – 00:27:42:03
And so it was a massive effort. Okay. And we’re looking at two groups, primarily they had a control group as well. So they’re actually three groups, but one group was comprised of women who were seeking, that was close to the gestational limit for a particular state. So they had either just made it just under the gestational limit or they were denied because they showed up after the cutoff.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:27:42:05 – 00:28:07:14
And so it was women denied and women who were able to escape through and get that close to the gestational limit. And then they had a control group of women who had a first trimester. So they that, you know, fast forward, this big data collection began in 2008, I believe it was completed. The recruitment was completed around 2010.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:28:07:17 – 00:28:30:17
And then the, the study was designed to look at women for five years. So it was a longitudinal effort. It’s the first paper appeared in 2012, I believe, and they just keep generating paper after paper after paper. I’ve seen estimates that they have, at least 50. I believe it’s closer to 65. But I don’t know that.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:28:30:18 – 00:28:57:08
Hold me to that. They just keep turning out paper after paper was a highly flawed methodology, and I testified in numerous cases throughout the country about the not so logical problems with this study. And that paper that ended up being retracted was essentially my analysis of the of my criticism. So there wasn’t any new analysis and just commentary.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:28:57:08 – 00:29:08:27
It was explaining how one will study this from a scientific perspective. So, there are a lot of different issues, but I think the most basic is.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:29:08:29 – 00:29:31:11
So before you go in and explain what your critique was, Priscila, I’m interested to know, you it sounds like you began you began being an expert witness in various contexts after your 2011 paper. Did you become more in demand for things like expert witness testimony and stuff like that? Did that become did you become more of a public figure as a result of that paper?
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:29:31:14 – 00:29:58:28
Well, my my experience as an expert witness began around 2006 when I became involved in the 1166 film in South Dakota. And I had been on a couple other, cases, the, Stacy’s Ali case in new Jersey, a young woman who committed suicide after I was also involved. And I. Cincinnati case. So I was doing the expert witness work.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:29:59:01 – 00:30:29:24
I would say it really picked up, the most. And since 17. So that. But that paper grew a lot of interest. So that’s, you know, people wanted the information. So I became known as a scholar, as a speaker and I was invited quite a bit. And but the actual expert work, you know, really took off and 17 with Missouri, I started working a lot with John Sauer, the solicitor general there.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:30:29:24 – 00:30:53:12
I was on many cases with Missouri, did a lot for Indiana, 19 and 22, 21. So there were certain states that relied on me more heavily. But, I wouldn’t say that the, the expert work was or or the and the attack was directly related to that 2011 paper.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:30:53:14 – 00:31:10:27
I see. So the reason you decided to write this paper in 2022 is that you had been making a certain critique multiple times, because you’ve been called upon in various ways until you decided to write it down and get it in print. That’s what I that’s what I’m hearing. So.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:31:11:00 – 00:31:33:10
Well, I just wanted it to be well, I wanted people to understand how for that trying to wage study is a methodology. I was teaching research methods at Bowling Green State University at the time. I would give the seniors when they took that course there, an article from the Journal way they could identify the flaws and they put the average person can’t.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:31:33:10 – 00:31:57:15
And when the news flashes are constantly focusing on this, you know, this phenomenal study that is finally, you know, going to end the debate. And the studies are published in prestigious journals. And and it was just maddening. So I was invited to write an article, by Steven Stanley, with Francis Kent. He was a special edition editor of That Frontier.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:31:57:15 – 00:32:28:24
So I wrote the he’s so you know, he said, why don’t you write down? And I thought, you know, it’s a good opportunity to do this because, otherwise the, you know, the press gets away was saying that the study is great. The studies used in court cases. I wanted there to be evidence that judges could use not, you know, not just it wasn’t designed to inform the judges involved in the Dobbs decision, but it was informed, and it was designed to inform at all levels.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:32:28:24 – 00:32:52:29
And but judges who have to have to look at the literature and make a law based on the evidence, and they’re being presented with such biased work and have the potential for harm to women is huge. And so it really was a chance. And, you know, and I didn’t only critique the turn away study, I spoke about the bias in publishing and, and in science.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:32:52:29 – 00:33:06:17
And so it was a commentary piece that wasn’t any new analysis of data, and that’s why it’s retracted. Yet it confirms my thesis. Yes. They don’t want to hear it.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:33:06:20 – 00:33:28:22
And so, yeah, because it’s not like there wasn’t because that because you weren’t analyzing data, it couldn’t possibly be that you had misused data because that’s not what it was about. Right. And that’s the typical way that’s the typical reason for something to be retracted is that somebody has somehow mishandled the data or, you know, there’s some problem of that sort.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:33:28:24 – 00:33:47:26
And so therefore we shouldn’t even talk about it anymore. It should just go away because the data is is goofed up. But I, I now I think it’s time for you to explain what your critique is of the turn away study. I read the material that you sent me. Very fascinating. Not all of our followers are nerds.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:33:47:26 – 00:34:10:20
We do have a substantial collection of very nerdy people written into this channel, and have watched me and other Sullins go back and forth talking about PE ratios and stuff. So it would be okay, for you to explain the, the, what the problem is, but I, I, I’m pretty sure you I’m pretty sure you can explain this very simply to people what your basic critique is.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:34:10:20 – 00:34:41:21
I believe I can, sometimes the numbers that do sort of, better picture or, more. I don’t know what the number is. It seems so much more real to me, but, but but the the worst problem with the turn away study, the absolute fatal flaw, in my opinion, will involve the sampling issues. So to to back up like they had, they had 29 centers from around the country.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:34:41:21 – 00:35:10:10
They never I have pored over their operations manual, all their articles, they, they never explained where those, centers were located, how they were chosen. So they just they just have 29 centers, likely friendly centers that, you know, that have, you know, that they have inside connections. No. But for some reason, there’s 29 centers and the reader does not know how they were selected.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:35:10:17 – 00:35:34:12
And you don’t you just don’t do that in science. You explain that process. And so each of these centers had an average of 2000 that took place over the time, over each year, over the three year time period, data collection was from 8 to 10. But they don’t explain which centers began immediately, which ones were brought in later on.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:35:34:16 – 00:36:13:12
So the reader doesn’t have any way of knowing what is the population. How many people could have been selected for this study? And I performed some calculations for Indiana, where I was an expert witness for their, that was challenged. All of their pro-life issues or their restrictions were challenged in, 2019. And basically, there isn’t any way to estimate that to know what the population size was, it may have varied from about 130,000 to 190,000 approximately in that range.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:36:13:12 – 00:36:18:19
But you just don’t know. There’s just not enough data presented in there. And their manual.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:36:18:22 – 00:36:25:20
When you say the population, you mean the number of that were performed at those 29 centers? Is that what you mean?
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:36:25:28 – 00:36:32:17
That’s right. That’s the that’s the the those are the potential participants because they like having those centers.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:36:32:20 – 00:36:42:25
And so so they did. So the turn away study people did report enough for you to say there were X number of per year.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:36:42:27 – 00:37:08:02
Some. Yeah. Yeah. I mean they’re to they do say that somewhere that they average about 2000 a year and they had 29 centers. And so, you know, I have done the calculations. I’m just going to look at my notes a little bit so I don’t say anything, you know, the exact numbers are represented, but I know you want just the gist of it.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:37:08:05 – 00:37:36:06
So the population is somewhere in that range probably, you know, up to 165,000. That is the upper limit. So I misspoke a few minutes ago, the maximum number, if all the centers were, came on board right at the beginning of that three year period, and they were all assessed, you know, a new people were changed each year would have been 162,000.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:37:36:12 – 00:38:21:04
But it’s it seems like from some of the descriptions that several of those centers were brought on a little later in the second year or the third year. So we don’t really know. So maximum of 162,000. But then, so once they did their data collection, there were issues too, because some of the people who were initially identified as eligible were not approached to be participants only about, I mean, just there were 7486 women who were screened and so the study and, those screened in only 3045 were approached to participate.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:38:21:04 – 00:38:48:08
We don’t know why half of them were not more than half were not approached. Were they crying? We don’t know. We don’t know the reasons behind that. They don’t explain that. And and so then once they have had 3045 who were approached to participate, the number that that agreed to be part of the study was only 1199.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:38:48:11 – 00:39:25:09
So whittling it down, you know, progressively and and one of your questions that we had in preparing for this interview, you had said that often in the media, we share that the turn away study incorporate a thousand women. Well, initially agreeing to participate, there were 1199 women, but only 877 complete the the first baseline measures. And then by the time the five year period goes up, it’s down to 512 women.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:39:25:15 – 00:39:49:24
So when we look at 512 women who endured through this, from this huge potential pool of up to 162,000, it’s a meaningless, minuscule percentage that does not mean and has no bearing on what the average woman would experience. In one of those three groups, whether they were okay.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:39:49:24 – 00:39:58:16
But here’s the thing that really bugs me. And I got to say it. And you, you were too polite to say this, so I’m going to say it. Come back next week for the rest of the interview.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:39:58:18 – 00:40:22:06
She was pressured into by her boyfriend and the boyfriend’s father, and then he dumped her. The next day, oh, 6 or 8 months later, she she started drinking and she hung herself in her room. And and it was a situation where there was she didn’t have the risk factors, but she, she lost her baby and was in the suicide note.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:40:22:06 – 00:40:46:15
She indicated that now she can be with her unborn baby, Brittany Lee. And so one of my, jobs for that case was to count how many suicides in the United States are directly attributable to. And again, it’s kind of a statistical thing where there are different ways to calculate. But a minimum of 43 suicides every year are directly attributable here.
Dr. Priscilla Coleman
00:40:46:17 – 00:41:02:07
It’s the primary factor, and it may be as many as 245 or so. And that’s the extreme. You know, they just find, life incompatible with having had enough. Yeah. Yeah. There’s just such a.
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse
00:41:02:07 – 00:41:07:06
Lot, I think. I think now’s a good time for you to to talk about your institute.
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The Ruth Institute is a global non-profit organization, leading an international interfaith coalition to defend the family and build a civilization of love.
Jennifer Roback Morse has a Ph.D. in economics and has taught at Yale and George Mason University. She is the author of The Sexual State and Love and Economics – It Takes a Family to Raise a Village.
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