Dr. Morse and Father Rob Jack discuss Michigan’s proposed constitutional amendment on abortion and the hidden dangers it poses to parents and children.
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Fr. Jack: With us now is Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse. She heads the Ruth Institute, an interfaith nonprofit organization helping defend the family and repair the damage of the sexual revolution. Her most recent book is called The Sexual State: How Elite Ideologies Are Destroying Lives. Dr. Morse, it’s a pleasure to have you with us today.
Dr. Morse: Well, thanks very much, you guys, for bringing back memories for me. I grew up in Columbus, Ohio, and I grew up as a Reds fan. And in 1976, yeah, I think 1976, 75, I started graduate school at the University of Rochester, and I had never lived outside of Ohio before. And imagine my surprise when the wrong team was rooted.
Everyone there in Rochester was rooting for the wrong team. The World Series, it was the Red Sox versus the Reds that year, and we won. The Reds won that year.
Fr. Jack: That was the best. That was 75. I’ll never forget that.
Dr. Morse: Johnny Bench and Joe Morgan and…
Fr. Jack: The Great Eight, as we call them. But we also we also had that Game six, which was unbelievable that that hit by Carlton Fisk. You know, that was that was 75 reds. 76 reds. They made it too easy. But the 75 reds are one of my all time favorite teams. I wish I would have kept the stuff I had with them.
I’ll tell you. Yes, all the paraphernalia growing up and it’s all in the dustbin of history. But those are the joyful things to talk about. You know, within two weeks now, we’re going to be having an election and all kinds of states are having different types. And now Kentucky’s having a thing. Now to make sure that there’s nothing in the Kentucky Constitution that would support abortion.
So we know that’s going on here at issue two over in Kentucky. Ohio’s still trying to fight this whole heartbeat issue. But, you know, one of the things when we start looking at these constitutional provisions, I think sometimes they’re much more important than the election of politicians, because by making an amendment to the Constitution, it’s going to be very hard to change it.
Dr. Morse: That’s right. And that’s the whole idea. And what we’re seeing is some of these amendments that are being proposed by the pro-abortion side are not simple changes to the Constitution, but very complicated things that have a lot of hidden parts to them.
Fr. Jack: You gotta read the fine print.
Dr. Morse: Dangerous thing to be putting into the Constitution. You know, and I just hope that the voters of Michigan, for example, I mean, you know, we have our thing going with Michigan, we in Ohio, but we love our brothers and sisters to the north, don’t we? And, you know, a Ohio State girl like me, we do love love the people of Michigan.
And I hope they are not bamboozled by proposal three because it’s bad. It’s bad.
Fr. Jack: Well, that the governor of Michigan has been very, very hostile towards anything regarding sexual morality or really even religious faith. I mean, she’s been quite the opponent of those kind of things.
Dr. Morse: Yes. And she was awful during the lockdowns, too, if you remember, the COVID mitigation measures and so on were, well, are out of control for a large part of her of her term. So. So, yes, the thing that we’ve been tracking is Michigan’s Proposal three, which they are which is being financed and proposed and, you know, advocated by Planned Parenthood and the ACLU.
And they’re saying that all it does is codify Roe. You know, we’re just going to turn back the clock to before DOBBS. But that is simply not the case. That is extremely misleading. If they talk to you like that, you know, they’re playing with you at that point, right. Because this bill has numerous hidden provisions in it that is much more radical than Roe.
Fr. Jack: Well, why don’t you tell us what some of those provisions are?
Dr. Morse: Yes. Yes. So for one thing, this is no longer a women’s measure, Father. The word woman does not appear anywhere in this pro-abortion bill. Pregnant individuals. I want you to know. Okay, pregnant individuals. So there’s that little fact, right, that we’re pretending that men can get pregnant. But more seriously than that is that the individuals in question, we don’t know how old they are.
There’s no age limit on this, on the so-called right to abortion. There’s no age limit on it. And if they had wanted to say this is an unlimited right for persons over 18 or persons over 16 or anything like that, they could have easily said that, but it does not say anything remotely like that. It says any individual, right?
So that’s one point. We know that it’s opened up the door for constitutional rights, for abortion, for individuals of any age. Then you add to that the expansive definition of reproductive health care to include things like sterilization and contraception. And you are and you’re looking at a way of smuggling gender identity medicine into the Constitution of Michigan.
Right. Because, you know, let’s face it, some of the procedures that are involved in trans medicine care, in fact, sterilize people. And so if it’s true that any person has the right to those treatments and that no one has the right to discriminate against somebody on the basis of whether they’re going to provide these treatments or not. And when you see that anyone who helps someone is immune from prosecution, right.
What you’re doing is you’re setting up a situation where parents are going to have a lot more difficult time protecting their children from the school guidance counselor or the Planned Parenthood worker or the clinic worker, anything like that, who has talked the child into the idea that, gee, I was born in the wrong body and I need these medical treatments, this is urgent health care, you know, that’s what’s being set into motion by the language of proposal three.
And that’s what is sneaky about it.
Fr. Jack: Well, that and also Article three, as you point out in the latest newsletter from the Ruth Institute, you say Article three of the proposal for Prop three potentially eliminates parental involvement in their children’s decision making, nor shall the state penalize, prosecute or otherwise take adverse action against someone for aiding or assisting a pregnant individual in exercising their right to reproductive freedom with their voluntary consent.
Now, that again assumes that this is a pregnant young woman, but how does that deal with the question of a gender reassignment?
Dr. Morse: See Reproductive Health Services extends itself to things like sterilization. Okay. And so that’s the concern. And, you know, they can say all day long that that’s not what they mean. And if they say that to you, are you going to get them to promise that nobody’s ever going to bring a lawsuit on that basis?
You know, of course not. Every single thing that I just mentioned is a potential avenue for a lawsuit somewhere down the line. Right. And so they can tell you anything they want. But the fact is, they opened the door with the way this thing is worded. There’s no question in my mind that that’s where this thing is going.
Fr. Jack: We’re speaking with Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse of the Ruth Institute today about this Article three or Proposition three in Michigan, about the question of basically codifying Roe, but doing many, many more dangerous and evil things than that underneath the surface. Doctor, can you stay with us over the break and we’ll come back and continue our discussion?
Dr. Morse: Yes, please. Sounds great.
Fr. Jack: Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse heads up the Ruth Institute, which is an interfaith, nonprofit organization helping defend the family and repair the damage of the sexual revolution. You know, Dr. Morse, one of the most important things about the Ruth Institute is getting this information out. Have you ever tried to contact anybody from the Michigan legislature? Because if something gets put into the Constitution, the legislature has to sign off on it before it gets put up for a vote, doesn’t it?
Dr. Morse: Well, I don’t know the rules of constitutional amendments in the state of Michigan. You know, and generally, as you know, I don’t get involved that deeply involved in legislative intellectual stuff, because that’s just not what we do. But I made a point of getting involved in this one because the ambiguity in this measure is so great.
It’s so great that I really felt that I couldn’t sit it out. You know, I had to get involved and talk about it. So. But there’s a good group of people in Michigan. There’s a very good coalition fighting this thing. The Catholic bishops have been very good on this subject. And our friend Teresa Tomeo has been talking nonstop about it.
And she, of course, as you know, has a national audience, even though she’s based in Ann Arbor. But she’s got a national audience. So, you know, they’re working on it. And I you know, from a distance, I’m hoping and praying to St Jude, actually, that this thing goes down in defeat that it so richly deserves.
Fr. Jack: Well, it has to. I mean, again, you just wonder usually, you know, every state, I guess, has its own laws for appending their own constitution. But I know that at least in Ohio and in Kentucky, you need a certain number of signatures to get this on the ballot. And then oftentimes it usually also has to be thrown to the house in terms of getting this amendment on, meaning their own legislature.
And so that they were at least signing off on letting this be voted on.
Dr. Morse: Oh, I see what you mean. Yes, yes. Before it ever got on the ballot. Some procedure like that. Yes. That may very well be true, but I just. I just don’t know.
Fr. Jack: Yeah, because I don’t know if is the legislature more Democratic or Republican?
Dr. Morse: Yeah, I don’t I can’t answer that. I don’t. I know. I don’t know the answer to that. Sorry about that. I got all I can do to keep track.
Fr. Jack: We’ve got 50 states. We can’t do at all.
Dr. Morse: That’s right. That’s right. But, you know, I do remember back from my proposition eight days, you know, when we were trying to amend the Constitution to California. And we succeeded. But that amendment was so simple. Marriage in the state of California shall consist of one man and one woman. No hidden text, you know, no ambiguity, just plain vanilla.
Anybody can understand it, you know, and this amendment is proposal three. The amendment listed there is very complicated and it takes a lot to understand it. And I’m sure there are people who think they understand it and they don’t see all the implications of it.
Fr. Jack: Well, you know, there is the old saying, the devil is in the details.
Dr. Morse: You bet. You bet. Exactly right.
Fr. Jack: I see that happening already. You know, in our government. I was just reading a thing on the Internet today about President Biden using and basically using the bankrolling military abortions through taxpayers’ money and, you know, in other countries. And so, yeah, there still I mean, this is this is the ironic thing someone who purports to be Catholic and all this will say, you know, his number one goal for the rest of his term is to codify Roe versus Wade.
I do not understand how someone can live such a cognitively dissonant life and be in reality. And in my opinion. It’s just my opinion. This guy is not in reality. And many of our political leaders are not in reality.
Dr. Morse: No. They have a fantasy ideology that they’re promoting. You know, they it’s they want the world to be a certain way. They want to be able to do whatever they want sexually and not have any responsibilities associated with it. They want to have you know, they want to have the rights without the responsibilities. And every civilized society, actually, every society, whether civilized or uncivilized, recognizes that you have to keep society going.
That means parents have to take care of their children. That means you have to have some constraints on the sexual act so that the child is connected to the mother and the father and there’s somebody there to be responsible for the child. Well, the sexual revolution has disrupted that equation at every step. And Catholic, the Catholic sexual tradition, the Catholic sexual ethics that has been developed over the centuries, obviously kicked off by Jesus Christ himself.
Our ethos has strengthened those bonds at every step. Right. To attach mothers and fathers to their children and to one another. What Jesus did was radical, you know, telling the apostles: Hey, listen, man, no divorce. One to a customer for life. And the apostles were freaked out. You remember that? I mean, they were like, What? What?
This is too hard. He says, Watch me if you don’t like that. Let’s talk about celibacy for a minute. Let’s talk about being a unit for the sake of the kingdom. You know, it’s like he really meant it. He really meant, oh, a life long married love. That’s what he was trying to do. And by doing that, he makes the relation between the mother and the father, which is a chosen conjugal relationship, just as permanent as a relationship between the parent and the child.
Because the parent of the child, obviously, you can’t ever really undo that. That’s a primal fact of your existence, who your mom and dad are and so keeping mom and dad together, that’s something that the Catholic ethos has supported all the way along. And it’s one of the foundations of a Christian civilization.
Fr. Jack: You know, I was reading an interesting thing today about the true people who have lost their minds are the one who only use their mind. And I keep that in mind. That was G.K. Chesterton, who said that the really insane people are the ones who are only rational alone. And that’s really what we’re dealing with in this world, because I was we were talking earlier about a some books by Archbishop Sheen and one of them, of course, he was a very staunch anti communist and of course, the Marxist model was, first of all, economic.
That didn’t work. Now we go to a new form that didn’t work. Now, the bludgeon or the cudgel that we’re being bludgeoned with all the time now is, is sexuality that now that has become if we can’t be economically free or politically free, then we will be sexually free. And because that is so tied in with the propagation of the human race and basically, you know, the primal self gift one gives to another to bring a new child into this world, that this is something that they’re not going to give up easy.
Dr. Morse: No, that’s right. That’s right. Because if you look at that, every ideology that you just mentioned, you know, Marxism is really in a sense, a the ideology is a cover story for a power grab. You know, they talk about it as if they want equality and freedom and all that kind of stuff. You know, you can’t find a marxist country anywhere where there’s equality and freedom for the average person.
Again, it’s crazy to even say that, right? I mean, you know, we should know that by now. And likewise, it’s equally true that the sexual revolution was supposed to give us fun and freedom and women and men were going to be equal and yada, yada, yada. And in point of fact, what’s happened is that the government has been more empowered and rich people have been more empowered by every phase of the sexual revolution.
It hasn’t brought fun and freedom to the average person whatsoever. You know, and the people who work in the pregnancy care centers see the fallout. They are doing hand-to-hand combat for one soul at a time, trying to get people out of this really dead end that is the sexual revolution, you know. How do we produce all these problem pregnancies that people feel they can’t have?
Right. I mean, it’s pretty simple.
Fr. Jack: You heard the gubernatorial candidate from Georgia saying, you know, how do you get rid of inflation? And if you can’t afford kids, then kill them. You know, that’s one. Stacey Abrams said that yesterday on Fox, you know, on in the conference, it’s like this. They’re not even hiding this stuff anymore.
Dr. Morse: Right, right.
Fr. Jack: Dr. Morse, we’re out of time. I’m sorry about that. We always run out of time with you, and I apologize for that. But if people want to subscribe to the Ruth Institute’s newsletter and see the latest, Dr. J, of course, on Rumble, because they’re probably not going to be able to see it on YouTube. Where can we go?
Dr. Morse: You go to the Ruth institute dot org and Ruth Institute dot org or our Facebook page that will take you to all of our other properties where you can see our videos and hear our podcast, including interviews like this one, the show up on the Ruth Institute podcast.
Fr. Jack: I thank you so much for being with us today, Dr. Morse.
Dr. Morse: You’re very welcome, Father, bye now.
About the Ruth Institute
The Ruth Institute is a global non-profit organization, leading an international interfaith coalition to defend the family and build a civilization of love.
Jennifer Roback Morse has a Ph.D. in economics and has taught at Yale and George Mason University. She is the author of The Sexual State and Love and Economics – It Takes a Family to Raise a Village.
To get more information or schedule an interview with Dr. Morse, contact media@ruthinstitute.org.
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