Frank Pavone and His Apology

This week on Driving Home the Faith, Fr. Rob Jack and Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse discuss Priests for Life and the Frank Pavone Affair

Transcript:

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Fr. Jack: With us now is Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse and she heads the Ruth Institute, which is an interfaith nonprofit organization helping defend the family and repair the damage of the sexual revolution. Her most recent book, which is really a primer on the whole culture in which we’re living right now, is called The Sexual State: How Elite Ideologies Are Destroying Lives.

Thank you so much for being with us today, Dr. Morse.

Dr. Morse: I’m glad to be with you.

Fr. Jack: You know, one of the things we some might be arguing, we’re picking on our own now. And but there is an issue that came out. And of course, one of the issues regarded the status of formerly Father Frank Pavone, who has had difficulties with the church and the institution over his group Priests for Life. And this has been going on for a long time, and the struggle has gone back and forth.

And recently we found out he was defrocked from the priesthood because of disobedience to the bishop. And people want to rightly defend him because, again, he’s one of the most well-known pro-life warriors in the United States. And being a priest or not, that hasn’t changed that. But there’s also some accusations against Father Pavone of aspects of sexual harassment or treating some of the young women who have come to be interns at Priests for Life rather disrespectfully.

And, of course, one of Father Pavone’s former workers, Father Imbarrato said, yeah, this is this is a problem. And of course, Father, I keep calling Father Pavone, but he is a priest forever in Melchizedek anyway. What the difficulty is, is that he said, Oh, that’s all past history, and we don’t have to deal with that anymore.

And you wrote an article in the National Catholic Register dealing with the Pavone issue, and I’m sure you just didn’t get a lot of kudos for that.

Dr. Morse: Well, actually, it wasn’t in the Register.

Fr. Jack: Oh, it wasn’t? Oh, Crisis. I’m sorry it was Crisis.

Dr. Morse: It was in Crisis. The Register didn’t really want to do it. I had something else in the Register, so I’m still, you know, a thing over there. But this was a topic they didn’t want to deal with, for whatever reason, which I don’t really know. I think one of their concerns was that it said we can’t know whether the accusations are true.

And that’s true. You know, it’s one of those things that’s difficult to assess, but you can draw some inferences from what is known publicly.

Fr. Jack: But it’s clear, and I want to make one clear, he’s not accused of anything criminal.

Dr. Morse: That’s correct.  

Fr. Jack: I mean, there’s no criminal accusation.

Dr. Morse: That’s exactly right. So even if everything you know, everything that the women are coming forward, there are now, I believe, four different women who have come forward and completely independently too, I might add. So there were The Pillar, J.D. Flynn and Condon who run the publication called The Pillar. They interviewed two different women. And then independently of that, I gather, Christine Niles, over a Church Militant, talked to two other women. 

And then there’s the testimony of Father Imbarrato. You know, so there’s a variety of evidence converging on the same thing. And it’s and it’s independent. You know, they’re not sitting around plotting and scheming to come up with this together. Right. As far, you know, as far as we can tell. And even if every single thing was proven to the satisfaction of a court of law, there’s nothing criminal here, okay?

It was you know, it was creepy. It was simple. It was you know, it was not good. But there’s nothing criminal here. So even if it’s proven, nobody’s going to jail over it, you know? And that’s an important point, I think, because it gives us some perspective on what, you know, the kinds of things that go on that really aren’t good and need to be addressed versus things that are going to land you in jail or a lawsuit or things like that, you know?

So anyway. But yeah, that’s by way of background. I felt it was important to try to spell this out and think it through. You know, because there’s so many there’s just so many balls in the air around a topic like this. And I wanted to try to help people think it through. I wanted to think it through for myself.

You know, how do you how do we respond to charges of this kind? What should we think? What should we do with whatever our sphere of influence might be? I mean, I don’t have anything to do with either Frank Pavone or the Priests for Life. You know what I mean? I’m not involved, right? I don’t have any authority.

But how do we think it through? What to conclude?

Fr. Jack: Well, first of all, I’d say it’s a very large group. I mean, it is a I don’t it’s not a corporation, but it’s a multimillion dollar pro-life group. And the goal, it says, is, of course, to bring an end to abortion. Now, from my take as a priest, you know, if I was in his shoes, if those accusations were made, my point is my reputation is not as important as the pro-life movement.

You don’t want to stop that by basically calling into question someone’s character? So I believe, because this is what Cardinal Pell did in Australia, he put himself under his own regulations for this abuse stuff and it was found to be he was found to be totally innocent.

But he took that leave of absence and it was clear he was not in charge of the dioceses at that time. And I believe if a Father Pavone or Pavone wants to be free of everything, he ought to step aside, you know, and let the board make an independent assessment of that. And if something was done that says he shouldn’t head this organization, then he shouldn’t head it.

Because I would think if it’s true or what he says and that is the number one thing is bringing an end to abortion, then even if he’s not a part of it, if the group that he helped to shape and move is able to accomplish that, then I would you know, that would be more important than trying to defend himself.

Dr. Morse: Well, that’s a very interesting take that and if you compare how he’s conducting himself with, for example, how Cardinal Pell conducted himself. Cardinal Pell immediately said, I didn’t do it. I mean, I didn’t do it. And I’m going to go over there and face these charges because I know I didn’t do it. And that’s not how Frank Pavone is conducting himself.

I mean, and man that really bothered me, the statement that he came out with this, he said if I you know, maybe I’ve fallen short of the mark, and if anything I did offended somebody, I’m sorry. And I’m thinking, you know, that’s not what you say when you are really innocent. I mean, he knows whether he put his hand on a girl’s leg while she’s driving him to the airport.

He knows whether he came to somebody’s hotel room in the middle of the night. He knows whether his office and his living quarters were right next to each other. And he had these girls staying late at work. You know, he knows whether he did that or not. And he should know that if he did that, that they, of course, they’re offended.

Of course they’re concerned. Of course. This is the thing, you know. So I didn’t think he did himself any credit with what he said.

Fr. Jack: Well, and he’s failing to deal with the fact, you know, priests, we have boundaries for a reason. And those boundaries are both for the protection of ourselves and the people around us. And so you learn how to act or not act. You learn to be very careful, especially when you’re around members of the opposite sex. You just learn that.

And in terms of for just for the sake of both people and, and in doing that, then you try to make it as impossible as you can for any accusations to happen. And by letting these things go on. See, one of the things that I’ve seen, and this is always the downfall of priests. Well, anybody but priests who we’re talking about and I told I tell this to the seminarians when I used to teach them, I said, never believe your own PR. Don’t do it.

Dr. Morse: That’s good advice for anyone.

Fr. Jack: You know those people. The people will say, Well, father walks on water, Father’s done this and father’s done that. And you know, when people if they say a kind thing to me, I say thank you very much. And then I promptly ignore it because I know my own soul. I don’t believe the PR. And so it’s not about to change my behavior.

But anyway, if you can stay with us over the break, we’ll come back and continue this.

Dr. Morse: Sure. I’d love to keep talking about it. I think it’s a very important issue being raised here and it’s just good to speak about it candidly. So thanks a lot.

Fr. Jack: With us now is Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse, and we’re talking to her about an article she wrote in Crisis magazine this past week. What should we think about the Pavone affair and the question regarding Priests for Life. Thanks for staying with us, Dr. Morse. 

Dr. Morse: I’m glad to do it. You know, I just think I just feel like, you know, father all families have pockets of dysfunction. And what makes the difference between a dysfunctional family and functional families is how you deal with your problems, right? And if you sweep them under the rug, you’re not going to get anywhere. The secrets multiply and cause all kinds of internal problems.

So I’m grateful that you’re talking about this. Even if we turn out to not agree on every point, I just. I just think it’s healthy what we’re doing now.

Fr. Jack: My grandmother used to have a saying. She says, don’t get too big for your britches, young man. And that’s something that we need to remind everybody because we I’ve seen many, many priests who have been beloved and have had and have been very successful in what they’ve done. And in the midst of all this, they’ve now left the priesthood or they were accused of something or committed some terrible things because they can’t because of the temptation.

And that’s a that’s a thing that priests we have to always be aware of that we have to take. We have to take matters into our own hands. I mean, it gets to the point with me. I’m conscious of every single thing anymore just because I see how things operate. I know sometimes for a while there I don’t have around anymore, but sometimes in the summertime I might have some candy and, you know, give them at the kids out of mass.

I said, No, I can’t do that, because that’s considered grooming. And so if a kid comes out to me, I said, Well, I said, do you think they’d like some candy? And then they say, Well, yeah. And I hand it to the parents. Here, Mom and Dad. They say, Well, why don’t you give it to them? I said, Well, you know, I think it’s better if Mom and Dad give it to them.

Dr. Morse: Exactly.

Fr. Jack: And so, you know, you just don’t do things without the permission of other, you know, of their parents. And with teenagers, you don’t meet with them except in a room with a window in the door. You don’t. There’s just certain things or you’re I know in the archdiocese back in the early 2000s, priests weren’t even hearing kids confessions in the confessional.

We were hearing them separated from people in two chairs just because of the fear of being accused of something.

Dr. Morse: What do you mean? How were you hearing confessions?

Fr. Jack: Well, what they would do is they would take the sanctuary and they would set up two chairs in certain areas of the sanctuary where they’re distant apart so that the priest would meet face to face with the penitent. But it was clear that the priest independently could be seen by everybody.

Dr. Morse: I see. I see.

Fr. Jack: That was done because.

Dr. Morse: Yeah, I get why. You know, I know a parish here in Louisiana where they shut down the face to face confessionals that were concealed. Right. And everything’s behind the screen. You know, you can’t be in the same room. You know, you can’t physically touch.

Fr. Jack: I’ll tell you, we ought to have that. That ought to become the norm again, because I very rarely, if people want to come to me face to face, male or female, I say, I think it would be better if you’re behind the screen just because.

Dr. Morse: You’re keeping this sacred space separate and clearly marked that this is the sacred space, you know.

Fr. Jack: But I think Father Pavone here, he’s not taking it seriously. And I think he’s not recognizing the kind of damage. I mean, because there’s been pros and cons with his ministry, it’s clear he tried to start a community of priests, but it didn’t work because his focus was on raising money more as well as the pro-life cause. And so he’s always been focused on money.

Now, we know money is important when you’re doing this stuff. There’s no doubt about that. But when I saw see, this is the thing, and this is only my personal opinion, oftentimes he becomes he makes himself part of the story in the pro-life issue, the whole Terri Schiavo issue or having that mass with this aborted child. The story is never about him.

It’s about life. It’s about God. And I guess that’s the temptation that comes from becoming very popular. And he needed someone around him who was that he would listen to and respect. Because I think, you know, the bishops, I can I understand him being wary of bishops, because oftentimes when bishops see a lot of money, they see it not only for him, but for them, for their dioceses.

And so I understand the fear, but the fact of the matter is, of living a priest is supposed to, as best he can, live a transparent life. And with accusations, I would of, like I said, this is just me. I would have stepped away and say, look, I’ll let you decide and let the board decide what my role is going to be.

Do you think I should be part of this or not? Because, again, the Priest for Life, can it survive with Father Pavone? Well, if it’s doing the work that it’s supposedly doing, it ought to be able to do that.

Dr. Morse: Right. Right. And you know what I think is at stake for the larger pro-life movement and the larger Catholic community is that we have the opportunity to ask ourselves what kind of transparency do we want to insist on from the organizations that serve us.

Fr. Jack: And our priests.

Dr. Morse: And what kind of conduct do we expect from our clergy? Right. And so the way he’s conducting himself, the things he’s accused of. We can’t blow those things off. We can’t say, oh, it’s not a crime, so it’s okay. We cannot do that anymore. That’s got to stop. And we can’t say, oh, we love the guy because he helps the babies and so on, so forth.

We can’t. We got to let that go. You know, the issue. And precisely because, Father, if he would just say, I did it, I’m sorry I was wrong. I’m sorry I hurt you. He would not go to jail for that. He would not lose his priesthood because he’s already lost his priesthood. He wouldn’t. And it would mean so much to the survivors.

I mean, think what it would mean to. To the people who have been carrying around these experiences.

But the question is, would it hurt them in terms of donations?

Dr. Morse: Well, if that is the only that’s what got the Catholic Church where it is today.

Fr. Jack: Yes, it is.

Dr. Morse: That is the thought process that got us where we are today. And, you know, a lot of dioceses, I guess, think like that. I would I’m calling on him. I’m calling on the Priests for Life. Come on, guys, Step up to the plate.

Now is the time for us to show that this is how you handle it. Mistakes are going to happen. People are going to do bad stuff, but how are we going to deal with it? Are we going to be transparent? Are we going to try to make amends? You know, how are we going to deal with it? And as a layperson, I have zero authority here, right?

I can’t defrock anybody or send anybody to jail. You know, I can’t control any of that. But I can say, hey, you know, it would mean so much to the community. It would mean so much to the people who have been harmed by sexual misconduct. To have just one guy say, I was wrong. To just say it. I was wrong.

I’m sorry I hurt you. Without the weasel words. Without the weasel words, you know?

Fr. Jack: Well, Dr. Morse, I’m sorry, we’re out of time. But if people want to find out more about the Ruth Institute, read your article on this and also look at the other things that you have with the Dr. J Show and get the newsletter. Where can we send?

Dr. Morse: Ruth Institute. Dot org. It’s Ruth Institute dot org. And also our YouTube channel has an extensive playlist on dealing with childhood sexual abuse. So we would invite you to go over and take a look at that if that’s an issue for you in your life.

Fr. Jack: Well, we’ll put that up on our show notes. Dr. Morse, thanks for being with us today.

Dr. Morse: Thanks for having me, Father.

About the Ruth Institute

The Ruth Institute is a global non-profit organization, leading an international interfaith coalition to defend the family and build a civilization of love.

Jennifer Roback Morse has a Ph.D. in economics and has taught at Yale and George Mason University. She is the author of The Sexual State and Love and Economics – It Takes a Family to Raise a Village.

To schedule an interview with Dr. Morse, contact media@ruthinstitute.org.

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